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	<title>Comments on: Authorization contretemps</title>
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	<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/</link>
	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Dfens</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3505</link>
		<dc:creator>Dfens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3505</guid>
		<description>If you bring up this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/119275main_Griffin_STA_21_June_2005.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;transcript&lt;/a&gt; of Griffin&#039;s speech on June 21, where he compares NASA to a bank (begins in the middle of page 4), you&#039;ll see how NASA gets so tied to their contractors.  The sad thing is, a bank would not over extend themselves this way, and would go out of business if they did.  NASA, on the other hand, gets screwed time after time (it&#039;s not really their money, though, it&#039;s yours and mine), and can&#039;t figure out that it&#039;s time to climb out of that bed.  The new NASA administrator admits to this incestuous relationship, and no one in the room thinks anything of it.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you bring up this <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/119275main_Griffin_STA_21_June_2005.pdf" rel="nofollow">transcript</a> of Griffin&#8217;s speech on June 21, where he compares NASA to a bank (begins in the middle of page 4), you&#8217;ll see how NASA gets so tied to their contractors.  The sad thing is, a bank would not over extend themselves this way, and would go out of business if they did.  NASA, on the other hand, gets screwed time after time (it&#8217;s not really their money, though, it&#8217;s yours and mine), and can&#8217;t figure out that it&#8217;s time to climb out of that bed.  The new NASA administrator admits to this incestuous relationship, and no one in the room thinks anything of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Dfens</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3504</link>
		<dc:creator>Dfens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3504</guid>
		<description>If there&#039;s money to be made, its like blood in the water for the aerospace giants. What they want is to maintain status quo with regard to shuttle AND have a shuttle replacement program they can milk for the next 20 years (like F-22).  They will lobby for that, covertly at first, as you mentioned.  

These companies have a lot of power.  Ironically, NASA and the DoD see to it they do.  They encourage the big companies to buy smaller aerospace competitors.  The way they argue it, it gives them more leverage because the big companies have more at and to risk.  In reality it hasn&#039;t worked that way.  The big companies risk less and make more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s money to be made, its like blood in the water for the aerospace giants. What they want is to maintain status quo with regard to shuttle AND have a shuttle replacement program they can milk for the next 20 years (like F-22).  They will lobby for that, covertly at first, as you mentioned.  </p>
<p>These companies have a lot of power.  Ironically, NASA and the DoD see to it they do.  They encourage the big companies to buy smaller aerospace competitors.  The way they argue it, it gives them more leverage because the big companies have more at and to risk.  In reality it hasn&#8217;t worked that way.  The big companies risk less and make more.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Corey Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3503</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Corey Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3503</guid>
		<description>I put forward you&#039;ld be hard pressed to ever find a senetor/congressman to say the shuttle should be flying for 25 years.. anytime in the last 20. We, the space communtiy, is anything more then a special interest and a very minor one at that, as evidence by the last presidental election.

Most of them do not care, and when bills of such come up they ask their staffers for opinion. Other methods for choosing how to vote occur two like &quot;You vote for my pet project and I&#039;ll vote for yours.&quot;

Any possible status quo space lobbying will be done on the down low, its not a good clime for it. And the two entities that are interested in the status quo is Boeing and Lockheed. Lockheed has the contract for that multipurpose (man will congress ever learn?) jet fighter and has there future set. While Boeing just had a change of CEO&#039;s. So at the moment they are a bit busy. Any lobbying, overt or covert would begin after the shuttle lands sucessfully in a couple of weeks.

However as Boeing and Lockheed are the two purposals up for the CEV, they have the interest in keeping the shuttle flying. However groups like t/SPace and SpaceX if successful there is incentive in get the CEV out quickly, before the little guys do it themselves.

So the semi overt movements the lobbyists may do is to be going against the little guys. But again the overtness will not be extreme, as its a wrong clime for that.

We as a space community need to be watchfull of such lobbying and call them out on it.

Next week will be an interesting week in possible lobbying efforts. Both return to flight, and The DoD annoucment on the winning 4 proposals for the hybrid delta resuable first stage contract.

I would be alot more worried about the lobbyists if O&#039;Keefe was still running things. At this time i&#039;m just not as sure about Griffin. He is making the right noises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I put forward you&#8217;ld be hard pressed to ever find a senetor/congressman to say the shuttle should be flying for 25 years.. anytime in the last 20. We, the space communtiy, is anything more then a special interest and a very minor one at that, as evidence by the last presidental election.</p>
<p>Most of them do not care, and when bills of such come up they ask their staffers for opinion. Other methods for choosing how to vote occur two like &#8220;You vote for my pet project and I&#8217;ll vote for yours.&#8221;</p>
<p>Any possible status quo space lobbying will be done on the down low, its not a good clime for it. And the two entities that are interested in the status quo is Boeing and Lockheed. Lockheed has the contract for that multipurpose (man will congress ever learn?) jet fighter and has there future set. While Boeing just had a change of CEO&#8217;s. So at the moment they are a bit busy. Any lobbying, overt or covert would begin after the shuttle lands sucessfully in a couple of weeks.</p>
<p>However as Boeing and Lockheed are the two purposals up for the CEV, they have the interest in keeping the shuttle flying. However groups like t/SPace and SpaceX if successful there is incentive in get the CEV out quickly, before the little guys do it themselves.</p>
<p>So the semi overt movements the lobbyists may do is to be going against the little guys. But again the overtness will not be extreme, as its a wrong clime for that.</p>
<p>We as a space community need to be watchfull of such lobbying and call them out on it.</p>
<p>Next week will be an interesting week in possible lobbying efforts. Both return to flight, and The DoD annoucment on the winning 4 proposals for the hybrid delta resuable first stage contract.</p>
<p>I would be alot more worried about the lobbyists if O&#8217;Keefe was still running things. At this time i&#8217;m just not as sure about Griffin. He is making the right noises.</p>
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		<title>By: Dfens</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3502</link>
		<dc:creator>Dfens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3502</guid>
		<description>I certainly hope you are right.  Historically the shuttle has been very resilient.  Once they get past the bad press of their last failure, I think you will see they still have some fight left.  You&#039;re only seeing the start of it now.  I&#039;ll be more than happy to be wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly hope you are right.  Historically the shuttle has been very resilient.  Once they get past the bad press of their last failure, I think you will see they still have some fight left.  You&#8217;re only seeing the start of it now.  I&#8217;ll be more than happy to be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Cecil Trotter</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3501</link>
		<dc:creator>Cecil Trotter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3501</guid>
		<description>Dfens: &quot;Where are these lobbyists? How naive!..rant rant... blah blah&quot;


Well, where are they? Give me some statements by some Congressmen/Senators praising the Shuttle and saying we should fly it for 20-30 more years.... I can give you plenty of statements from those who say it&#039;s time has come. The shuttles days are numbered. You are the one who is being naive if you think it isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dfens: &#8220;Where are these lobbyists? How naive!..rant rant&#8230; blah blah&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, where are they? Give me some statements by some Congressmen/Senators praising the Shuttle and saying we should fly it for 20-30 more years&#8230;. I can give you plenty of statements from those who say it&#8217;s time has come. The shuttles days are numbered. You are the one who is being naive if you think it isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Dfens</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3500</link>
		<dc:creator>Dfens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3500</guid>
		<description>Where are these lobbyists? How naive! The consensus among those in the technical community is that shuttle is bad, therefore there is no lobby for the shuttle any more? Hell, shuttle would have been gone long ago if that&#039;s all it took. So were is the shuttle lobby? How many thousands at NASA draw a paycheck directly from shuttle funds? How many contractors draw a paycheck directly from shuttle funds? Some of these people draw some pretty substantial paychecks too. 

You seriously believe these people are going to see their gravy train come to an end and not say a word? You think they are going to watch their rice bowl be emptied and not lift a finger? Congressmen who hinge their reelection hopes on the shuttle pork they bring home, they are just going to sit quietly by and watch their pigs be herded off to another district?

You must be hanging with Griffin.  And notice I did not say he was wrong.  I&#039;m just concerned that he will be right and FAIL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where are these lobbyists? How naive! The consensus among those in the technical community is that shuttle is bad, therefore there is no lobby for the shuttle any more? Hell, shuttle would have been gone long ago if that&#8217;s all it took. So were is the shuttle lobby? How many thousands at NASA draw a paycheck directly from shuttle funds? How many contractors draw a paycheck directly from shuttle funds? Some of these people draw some pretty substantial paychecks too. </p>
<p>You seriously believe these people are going to see their gravy train come to an end and not say a word? You think they are going to watch their rice bowl be emptied and not lift a finger? Congressmen who hinge their reelection hopes on the shuttle pork they bring home, they are just going to sit quietly by and watch their pigs be herded off to another district?</p>
<p>You must be hanging with Griffin.  And notice I did not say he was wrong.  I&#8217;m just concerned that he will be right and FAIL.</p>
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		<title>By: Cecil Trotter</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3499</link>
		<dc:creator>Cecil Trotter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3499</guid>
		<description>&quot;He would not be talking about killing the shuttle in 2010 - that&#039;s crazy talk. All he&#039;s doing is giving the lobbyists a rally point to save their rice bowl.&quot;


Just where are these lobbyists who are trying to save the shuttle? By all acounts all but the most rapid shuttle supporters have now finally come to the realization that the shuttles time is rapidly coming to a close.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He would not be talking about killing the shuttle in 2010 &#8211; that&#8217;s crazy talk. All he&#8217;s doing is giving the lobbyists a rally point to save their rice bowl.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just where are these lobbyists who are trying to save the shuttle? By all acounts all but the most rapid shuttle supporters have now finally come to the realization that the shuttles time is rapidly coming to a close.</p>
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		<title>By: Dfens</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3498</link>
		<dc:creator>Dfens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3498</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Everything is political in some way or other.&lt;/em&gt;

Bingo!  The funny thing to me is the fact that no Senator is asking for some &quot;non-political&quot; study regarding why we should keep that POS shuttle.  I mean, sure our space exploration program has been an unmitigated failure for the last 30 years, but let&#039;s not get rid of the shuttle!  

Of course, this whole thing underscores Griffin&#039;s lack of understanding of politics.  If he was smart in the way he needs to be smart, he would be keeping a much lower profile.  He would not be talking about killing the shuttle in 2010 - that&#039;s crazy talk.  All he&#039;s doing is giving the lobbyists a rally point to save their rice bowl.  

If Griffin was politically smart, he would be funding a study to SAVE the shuttle.  A study that would, in fact, be developing ways to replace it.  Then he could spend several years cutting the rug out from under shuttle by reallocating their people, budget, and contractors to organizations run by people he trusts.  Once he had his shuttle alternative program in place, complete with a supplier and all their lobbing clout, then he&#039;d let the shuttle fade away.  If Griffin was really smart he&#039;d spend an hour or two with Karl Rove instead of spending all his time hanging with his geek buddies at NASA hq.

He should have never taken on the most powerful program in NASA directly.  That&#039;s just stupid.  This guy needs to decide if he&#039;s going to be another crusader dashed on the rocks of Washington politics or if he&#039;s going to be someone who really changes things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Everything is political in some way or other.</em></p>
<p>Bingo!  The funny thing to me is the fact that no Senator is asking for some &#8220;non-political&#8221; study regarding why we should keep that POS shuttle.  I mean, sure our space exploration program has been an unmitigated failure for the last 30 years, but let&#8217;s not get rid of the shuttle!  </p>
<p>Of course, this whole thing underscores Griffin&#8217;s lack of understanding of politics.  If he was smart in the way he needs to be smart, he would be keeping a much lower profile.  He would not be talking about killing the shuttle in 2010 &#8211; that&#8217;s crazy talk.  All he&#8217;s doing is giving the lobbyists a rally point to save their rice bowl.  </p>
<p>If Griffin was politically smart, he would be funding a study to SAVE the shuttle.  A study that would, in fact, be developing ways to replace it.  Then he could spend several years cutting the rug out from under shuttle by reallocating their people, budget, and contractors to organizations run by people he trusts.  Once he had his shuttle alternative program in place, complete with a supplier and all their lobbing clout, then he&#8217;d let the shuttle fade away.  If Griffin was really smart he&#8217;d spend an hour or two with Karl Rove instead of spending all his time hanging with his geek buddies at NASA hq.</p>
<p>He should have never taken on the most powerful program in NASA directly.  That&#8217;s just stupid.  This guy needs to decide if he&#8217;s going to be another crusader dashed on the rocks of Washington politics or if he&#8217;s going to be someone who really changes things.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Kuperberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3497</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Kuperberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3497</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Dwayne Day about one thing.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://deepimpact.jpl.nasa.gov/home/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Deep Impact&lt;/a&gt; is great!  It&#039;s some of the best 4th of July fireworks ever.

It&#039;s also much better than the boring space shuttle and pathetic space station.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Dwayne Day about one thing.  <a href="http://deepimpact.jpl.nasa.gov/home/" rel="nofollow">Deep Impact</a> is great!  It&#8217;s some of the best 4th of July fireworks ever.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also much better than the boring space shuttle and pathetic space station.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Kuperberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/06/30/authorization-contretemps/comment-page-1/#comment-3496</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Kuperberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=590#comment-3496</guid>
		<description>Rand:  As you like to point out, the personal concerns of the astronauts are not the real issue.  They are after all only seven people.  The real issue is that the United States has a tremendous financial, emotional, and political investment in the space shuttle as a tool and a symbol, and in the astronauts as public heroes.  That is why the Columbia crash was traumatic to the nation, and why another shuttle crash would be even more traumatic.

I predict that another shuttle crash would discredit American government funding of human spaceflight.  I personally don&#039;t care, but those are the real stakes.  So the CAIB report, minus its wishful thinking, and even more the comments from Duane Deal and people like Jud Lovingood can be taken as a stern warning to NASA.

That said, I think that all that Griffin has really conceded is that some of CAIB&#039;s recommendations are impossible.  Like Deal, but unlike O&#039;Keefe, Griffin seems to understand the difference between flight safety recommendations and flight safety.  If anything, the shuttle might be less likely to crash if they let go of some of their obsession with foam debris.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rand:  As you like to point out, the personal concerns of the astronauts are not the real issue.  They are after all only seven people.  The real issue is that the United States has a tremendous financial, emotional, and political investment in the space shuttle as a tool and a symbol, and in the astronauts as public heroes.  That is why the Columbia crash was traumatic to the nation, and why another shuttle crash would be even more traumatic.</p>
<p>I predict that another shuttle crash would discredit American government funding of human spaceflight.  I personally don&#8217;t care, but those are the real stakes.  So the CAIB report, minus its wishful thinking, and even more the comments from Duane Deal and people like Jud Lovingood can be taken as a stern warning to NASA.</p>
<p>That said, I think that all that Griffin has really conceded is that some of CAIB&#8217;s recommendations are impossible.  Like Deal, but unlike O&#8217;Keefe, Griffin seems to understand the difference between flight safety recommendations and flight safety.  If anything, the shuttle might be less likely to crash if they let go of some of their obsession with foam debris.</p>
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