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	<title>Comments on: NY Times on the ISS</title>
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	<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=ny-times-on-the-iss</link>
	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Dietz</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4212</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Dietz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4212</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Heee! :)

An oldie-but-goodie.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heee! <img src="http://www.spacepolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
<p>An oldie-but-goodie.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Allen Thomson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4211</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Allen Thomson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4211</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the USAF and Shuttle pre-1986, see the article from the June 29 1984 Science, &quot;Estrangement on the Launch Pad&quot; at

http://tinyurl.com/a3sfz

(The poster&#039;s name seems somehow familiar...)

:-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the USAF and Shuttle pre-1986, see the article from the June 29 1984 Science, &#8220;Estrangement on the Launch Pad&#8221; at</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/a3sfz" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/a3sfz</a></p>
<p>(The poster&#8217;s name seems somehow familiar&#8230;)</p>
<p><img src="http://www.spacepolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4210</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4210</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;... A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. ... &quot;

David Davenport:  &quot;That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?&quot;


I wonder how well it might work today!

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. &#8230; &#8221;</p>
<p>David Davenport:  &#8220;That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder how well it might work today!</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4209</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;... A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. ... &quot;

David Davenport:  &quot;That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?&quot;


I wonder how well it might work today!

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. &#8230; &#8221;</p>
<p>David Davenport:  &#8220;That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder how well it might work today!</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4208</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4208</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;... A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. ... &quot;

David Davenport:  &quot;That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?&quot;


I wonder how well it might work today!

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. &#8230; &#8221;</p>
<p>David Davenport:  &#8220;That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder how well it might work today!</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4207</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good morning. I have no personal inside information about the USAF&#039;s Shuttle program. Here&#039;s what The Aerospace Corp.&#039;s web site says:

The Air Force Space Shuttle Program: A Brief History

E. J. Tomei

The Air Force had high hopes for its West Coast shuttle complex. But despite years of preparation, this state-of-the-art facility never saw a shuttle launch.

On January 1, 1986, the maiden flight of the Air Force space shuttle program was just six months away. This flight, mission 62-A, would mark the beginning of the Air Force&#039;s shuttle launch service from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The crew—which included Edward &quot;Pete&quot; Aldridge Jr., then Secretary of the Air Force—was completing preflight training at Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas.


...

Partly because of the location, and partly because of the different nature of Air Force missions, the new facilities at Vandenberg required capabilities that the NASA complex at Kennedy did not provide. For example, SLC-6 had a 4000-ton moveable wind screen standing 70 meters tall to shelter the orbiter during mating with the external tank. Sound suppression was enhanced through a 3-meter-diameter underground water system flowing nearly 3.8 million liters per minute. This water system absorbed the launch acoustics generated by the rocket thrust and prevented its reflection into the flight systems and payloads. A water-treatment facility reclaimed nearly 1.9 million liters of this sound-suppression water, which was contaminated with exhaust products from the solid motors after each launch. A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. The payload processing facility (which was designed to handle three 4.5 X 18-meter satellites simultaneously) was equipped with state-of-the-art electromagnetic shielding. A 15-megawatt power plant provided dedicated power for all these facilities. The whole complex employed a seismic design capable of withstanding a severe earthquake.


...

With construction nearly complete, the Aerospace program office was transferred to Vandenberg in early 1982 to support formation of a site-activation task force. Operational verification testing began in 1984, and a joint NASA/Air Force operations team was formed, with Aerospace in the lead technical support role for the government. Facility verification tests using the orbiter Enterprise (an unpowered experimental model that was deployed from a jumbo jet, not launched from a launchpad) were completed in March 1985. All systems were go for an auspicious first launch in the summer of 1986.
All Systems Stop

That first launch never happened. On January 28, 1986, the Challenger accident resulted in the death of seven astronauts and the demise of the Air Force&#039;s space shuttle plans. The White House rescinded its 1982 mandate requiring all government payloads to fly on the space shuttle and instructed the Air Force to restart the expendable launch vehicle production lines. The space shuttle facilities at Vandenberg were once again abandoned, partly because the investigation into the Challenger failure resulted in design changes that rendered the shuttle incapable of lifting the satellites planned for polar flights out of Vandenberg. The Aerospace space shuttle program office was disbanded, and its personnel were reassigned to the new expendable launch vehicle programs and advanced launch studies. The primary payload flew on a later space shuttle mission out of Cape Canaveral; however, the second payload, Teal Ruby, never flew in space. The remaining DOD shuttle payloads planned for Vandenberg were placed on the manifest for the older Titan 34D and the new Titan IV launch systems. No human spaceflight has yet taken place in polar orbit.

Further Reading

   1. P. L. Portanova, &quot;DoD Space Shuttle Operations at Vandenberg Air Force Base Launch and Landing Site,&quot; Proceedings of the AF-SD/Industry/NASA Conference on Mission Assurance, June 1983.

http://www.aero.org/publications/crosslink/winter2003/05.html

/////////////////////


&quot;...  A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. ... &quot;

That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good morning. I have no personal inside information about the USAF&#8217;s Shuttle program. Here&#8217;s what The Aerospace Corp.&#8217;s web site says:</p>
<p>The Air Force Space Shuttle Program: A Brief History</p>
<p>E. J. Tomei</p>
<p>The Air Force had high hopes for its West Coast shuttle complex. But despite years of preparation, this state-of-the-art facility never saw a shuttle launch.</p>
<p>On January 1, 1986, the maiden flight of the Air Force space shuttle program was just six months away. This flight, mission 62-A, would mark the beginning of the Air Force&#8217;s shuttle launch service from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The crew—which included Edward &#8220;Pete&#8221; Aldridge Jr., then Secretary of the Air Force—was completing preflight training at Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas.</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>Partly because of the location, and partly because of the different nature of Air Force missions, the new facilities at Vandenberg required capabilities that the NASA complex at Kennedy did not provide. For example, SLC-6 had a 4000-ton moveable wind screen standing 70 meters tall to shelter the orbiter during mating with the external tank. Sound suppression was enhanced through a 3-meter-diameter underground water system flowing nearly 3.8 million liters per minute. This water system absorbed the launch acoustics generated by the rocket thrust and prevented its reflection into the flight systems and payloads. A water-treatment facility reclaimed nearly 1.9 million liters of this sound-suppression water, which was contaminated with exhaust products from the solid motors after each launch. A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. The payload processing facility (which was designed to handle three 4.5 X 18-meter satellites simultaneously) was equipped with state-of-the-art electromagnetic shielding. A 15-megawatt power plant provided dedicated power for all these facilities. The whole complex employed a seismic design capable of withstanding a severe earthquake.</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>With construction nearly complete, the Aerospace program office was transferred to Vandenberg in early 1982 to support formation of a site-activation task force. Operational verification testing began in 1984, and a joint NASA/Air Force operations team was formed, with Aerospace in the lead technical support role for the government. Facility verification tests using the orbiter Enterprise (an unpowered experimental model that was deployed from a jumbo jet, not launched from a launchpad) were completed in March 1985. All systems were go for an auspicious first launch in the summer of 1986.<br />
All Systems Stop</p>
<p>That first launch never happened. On January 28, 1986, the Challenger accident resulted in the death of seven astronauts and the demise of the Air Force&#8217;s space shuttle plans. The White House rescinded its 1982 mandate requiring all government payloads to fly on the space shuttle and instructed the Air Force to restart the expendable launch vehicle production lines. The space shuttle facilities at Vandenberg were once again abandoned, partly because the investigation into the Challenger failure resulted in design changes that rendered the shuttle incapable of lifting the satellites planned for polar flights out of Vandenberg. The Aerospace space shuttle program office was disbanded, and its personnel were reassigned to the new expendable launch vehicle programs and advanced launch studies. The primary payload flew on a later space shuttle mission out of Cape Canaveral; however, the second payload, Teal Ruby, never flew in space. The remaining DOD shuttle payloads planned for Vandenberg were placed on the manifest for the older Titan 34D and the new Titan IV launch systems. No human spaceflight has yet taken place in polar orbit.</p>
<p>Further Reading</p>
<p>   1. P. L. Portanova, &#8220;DoD Space Shuttle Operations at Vandenberg Air Force Base Launch and Landing Site,&#8221; Proceedings of the AF-SD/Industry/NASA Conference on Mission Assurance, June 1983.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aero.org/publications/crosslink/winter2003/05.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.aero.org/publications/crosslink/winter2003/05.html</a></p>
<p>/////////////////////</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;  A unique hot-gas heating system powered by a pair of turbofan engines was used to prevent ice formation on the external tank. &#8230; &#8221;</p>
<p>That is interesting. Wonder how well it would have worked?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Dfens</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4206</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dfens]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4206</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe Paul is correct.  That was when they decided not to allow the Centaur upper stage in the shuttle too.  The new &quot;safety culture&quot; at NASA allowed the voice of reason to be heard on that one.  Everyone I&#039;ve talked to who worked on that booster said it would have been a real bad idea to put it in the payload bay.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe Paul is correct.  That was when they decided not to allow the Centaur upper stage in the shuttle too.  The new &#8220;safety culture&#8221; at NASA allowed the voice of reason to be heard on that one.  Everyone I&#8217;ve talked to who worked on that booster said it would have been a real bad idea to put it in the payload bay.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paul Dietz</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4205</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Dietz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;My uunderstanding is that the Challenger disaster motivated the USAF to back out of doing polar Shuttle launches from Vandenberg. If Challenger hadn&#039;t failed, there would have been Air Force Shuttle launches.&lt;/i&gt;

I suspect it was just a convenient pretext for what they wanted to do anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>My uunderstanding is that the Challenger disaster motivated the USAF to back out of doing polar Shuttle launches from Vandenberg. If Challenger hadn&#8217;t failed, there would have been Air Force Shuttle launches.</i></p>
<p>I suspect it was just a convenient pretext for what they wanted to do anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Dinkin</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4204</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Dinkin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 04:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Can alt.space and big aerospace team up to keep the cash coming to the space industry as shuttle retires and ISS stops receiving new parts? I would happily take $70B over the next 5 years toward VSE rather than $10B now and $80B from 2011-2015. At what point do we say, &quot;It is better to have the budget flexibility than the budget.&quot; 5% less? 10% less? 15% less? 20% less? I vote 50% less. If $8 billion were spent on space access subsidies, we could have 4 million pounds in orbit/year or more at $2,000/lb. That is 80 shuttle loads worth.

If ISS and shuttle money were diverted to private industry and the access auctioned to the highest bidder, we would get in one year more than 20 years worth of space access. What are we getting from NASA that is worth more than that?

World launch revenue is $2.8 billion according to satellite industry association. $8 billion from US subsidy would more than double worldwide demand. $16 billion from US would more than quintuple it. At $2,000/lb, $16 billion, tens of thousands of people could fly to orbit in a government lottery. At $100,000 a head, over a hundred and fifty thousand could take a suborbital flight. What are we getting that is worth more than that? Open up the highway to space. Make space an international park. Anything. Just do something.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can alt.space and big aerospace team up to keep the cash coming to the space industry as shuttle retires and ISS stops receiving new parts? I would happily take $70B over the next 5 years toward VSE rather than $10B now and $80B from 2011-2015. At what point do we say, &#8220;It is better to have the budget flexibility than the budget.&#8221; 5% less? 10% less? 15% less? 20% less? I vote 50% less. If $8 billion were spent on space access subsidies, we could have 4 million pounds in orbit/year or more at $2,000/lb. That is 80 shuttle loads worth.</p>
<p>If ISS and shuttle money were diverted to private industry and the access auctioned to the highest bidder, we would get in one year more than 20 years worth of space access. What are we getting from NASA that is worth more than that?</p>
<p>World launch revenue is $2.8 billion according to satellite industry association. $8 billion from US subsidy would more than double worldwide demand. $16 billion from US would more than quintuple it. At $2,000/lb, $16 billion, tens of thousands of people could fly to orbit in a government lottery. At $100,000 a head, over a hundred and fifty thousand could take a suborbital flight. What are we getting that is worth more than that? Open up the highway to space. Make space an international park. Anything. Just do something.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/08/14/ny-times-on-the-iss/#comment-4203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=632#comment-4203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[ They tried to justify the space shuttle by military applications, but they failed. ]

My uunderstanding is that the Challenger disaster motivated the  USAF to back out of doing polar Shuttle launches from Vandenberg. If Challenger hadn&#039;t failed, there would have been Air Force Shuttle launches.

[ Didn&#039;t Griffin explicitly dismiss the idea that ISS was a good place to test hardware for VSE? ...] 

The hardware that really needs testing is new launch system hardware. It&#039;s no good trying to build a big space station with the obsolete Shuttle system. 

Plus, the ISS&#039;s 51.6 degree inclination angle puts the Space Station out of plane with minimum energy launches from Cape Kennedy as well as the Moon or Mars. Why 51.6 degrees? So the Rooskies could launch from Baikonur.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[ They tried to justify the space shuttle by military applications, but they failed. ]</p>
<p>My uunderstanding is that the Challenger disaster motivated the  USAF to back out of doing polar Shuttle launches from Vandenberg. If Challenger hadn&#8217;t failed, there would have been Air Force Shuttle launches.</p>
<p>[ Didn&#8217;t Griffin explicitly dismiss the idea that ISS was a good place to test hardware for VSE? &#8230;] </p>
<p>The hardware that really needs testing is new launch system hardware. It&#8217;s no good trying to build a big space station with the obsolete Shuttle system. </p>
<p>Plus, the ISS&#8217;s 51.6 degree inclination angle puts the Space Station out of plane with minimum energy launches from Cape Kennedy as well as the Moon or Mars. Why 51.6 degrees? So the Rooskies could launch from Baikonur.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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