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	<title>Comments on: Recycling ICBMs</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Zsidisin</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5138</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Zsidisin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2005 22:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5138</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just to go back to the conversion of US ICBMs for a moment...

This Peacekeeper proposal suffers from a lack of &quot;corporate memory&quot; (&quot;gov&#039;t memory&quot;).  The Minotaur is the result of the last attempt at this.

When the government proposed turning Minutemen into satellite launchers, Orbital threw a big fit, complaining (as others here have noted) that the government would put small launch providers out of business, even if the adapted launchers were used selectively for ... student payloads.

Hello!

The result today is that we have Orbital-topped Minotaurs at $20 million a launch, out of the range of most student payloads.

Hard to see that this wouldn&#039;t play out exactly the same way with Peacekeepers, which use a first stage similar to that which Thiokol markets for small launchers as the Castor 120, which in turn power the Lockheed Martin Athena and the Orbital Taurus, which in turn aren&#039;t really cost-effective and don&#039;t fly a whole lot.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to go back to the conversion of US ICBMs for a moment&#8230;</p>
<p>This Peacekeeper proposal suffers from a lack of &#8220;corporate memory&#8221; (&#8220;gov&#8217;t memory&#8221;).  The Minotaur is the result of the last attempt at this.</p>
<p>When the government proposed turning Minutemen into satellite launchers, Orbital threw a big fit, complaining (as others here have noted) that the government would put small launch providers out of business, even if the adapted launchers were used selectively for &#8230; student payloads.</p>
<p>Hello!</p>
<p>The result today is that we have Orbital-topped Minotaurs at $20 million a launch, out of the range of most student payloads.</p>
<p>Hard to see that this wouldn&#8217;t play out exactly the same way with Peacekeepers, which use a first stage similar to that which Thiokol markets for small launchers as the Castor 120, which in turn power the Lockheed Martin Athena and the Orbital Taurus, which in turn aren&#8217;t really cost-effective and don&#8217;t fly a whole lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Kuperberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5137</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Kuperberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 05:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5137</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Phil:  This analogy is food for thought:  The war in Iraq is to the war on terrorism what the space station is to space exploration.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil:  This analogy is food for thought:  The war in Iraq is to the war on terrorism what the space station is to space exploration.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Fraering</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5136</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Fraering]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 03:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5136</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Phil: Yeah, just like so many other great ideas, human spaceflight has been jinxed by the naysayers. Like the war in Iraq, for example. Also psychic spoon-bending.&lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;m sorry, do you want to talk about spaceflight or your own ideas about the war in Iraq?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Phil: Yeah, just like so many other great ideas, human spaceflight has been jinxed by the naysayers. Like the war in Iraq, for example. Also psychic spoon-bending.</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry, do you want to talk about spaceflight or your own ideas about the war in Iraq?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Dietz</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5135</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Dietz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 22:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;On the other hand, fission-thermal propulsion using liquid H2 as the propellant is a good idea. A specific impulse of about 1K seconds may be achieved using fission thermal propulsion.&lt;/i&gt;

Fission Thermal-Electric, a hybrid approach, can do a bit better than that.  The idea would be use the H2 flow to generate electricity, exploiting nuclear heat, before injecting the fluid into the thrust chamber.  After the propellant passes the reactor, it would be arc- or microwave-heated to even higher temperature (beyond the thermal limit of the reactor core materials) using this electricity, then expanded through a nozzle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>On the other hand, fission-thermal propulsion using liquid H2 as the propellant is a good idea. A specific impulse of about 1K seconds may be achieved using fission thermal propulsion.</i></p>
<p>Fission Thermal-Electric, a hybrid approach, can do a bit better than that.  The idea would be use the H2 flow to generate electricity, exploiting nuclear heat, before injecting the fluid into the thrust chamber.  After the propellant passes the reactor, it would be arc- or microwave-heated to even higher temperature (beyond the thermal limit of the reactor core materials) using this electricity, then expanded through a nozzle.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Greg Kuperberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5134</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Kuperberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5134</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Phil: Yeah, just like so many other great ideas, human spaceflight has been jinxed by the naysayers.  Like the war in Iraq, for example.  Also psychic spoon-bending.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil: Yeah, just like so many other great ideas, human spaceflight has been jinxed by the naysayers.  Like the war in Iraq, for example.  Also psychic spoon-bending.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Phil Fraering</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5133</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Fraering]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 03:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5133</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Is it any wonder that with a splintered &quot;support group&quot; such as this that US manned space exploration has stood still for the past 30 years?&lt;/em&gt;

So the main problem with NASA all this time has been all the naysayers on the internet, and if we all shut up Griffin&#039;s new architecture is suddenly going to become cheap?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Is it any wonder that with a splintered &#8220;support group&#8221; such as this that US manned space exploration has stood still for the past 30 years?</em></p>
<p>So the main problem with NASA all this time has been all the naysayers on the internet, and if we all shut up Griffin&#8217;s new architecture is suddenly going to become cheap?</p>
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		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5132</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 04:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5132</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here, check this out:

&lt;i&gt;TW/SNTP

&lt;i&gt;For more than a decade, the Particle Bed Reactor (PBR) has been a capability in search of a mission. The nascent PBR technology promises higher operating temperatures than those of conventional solid core reactors such as were developed in the 1960s under the NERVA program, which can translate into a more efficient power generator, or a more capable propulsion system.

&lt;i&gt;Despite these claimed advantages, proponents have failed to identify a high priority mission that would justify the expense of resolving the many remaining technical uncertainties. The technical risks of the PBR include:

&lt;i&gt;+ Challenges in fabricating the high temperature fuel particles that are the key to this technology -- efforts to date have failed to conclusively demonstrate that fuel particles can withstand the rigors of the reactor operating environment;

&lt;i&gt;+ The low thermal capacity of the reactor core increases the risk of thermal damage to the core in off-normal conditions, or during reactor cool-down;

&lt;i&gt;The particle bed reactor has been evaluated for applications that range from multi-megawatt burst-mode electric power supply for space-based weapons, to nuclear rocket engines for strategic defense interceptors and piloted interplanetary missions. Nearly $200 million has been spent by the Defense Department for development of this technology for military propulsion applications as part of the highly classified Timberwind program.

&lt;i&gt;Beginning in 1990 the Defense Department, and the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization which sponsored Timberwind, began seeking support from other agencies for broader applications for this technology. In particular, efforts were made to apply the PBR technology to NASA&#039;s new Space Exploration Initiative. This process culminated in the establishment by the Air Force of the Space Nuclear Thermal Propulsion program in late 1991, which assumed much of the work previously conducted under the Timberwind program.

... &lt;/i&gt;

http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_1.htm&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here, check this out:</p>
<p><i>TW/SNTP</p>
<p></i><i>For more than a decade, the Particle Bed Reactor (PBR) has been a capability in search of a mission. The nascent PBR technology promises higher operating temperatures than those of conventional solid core reactors such as were developed in the 1960s under the NERVA program, which can translate into a more efficient power generator, or a more capable propulsion system.</p>
<p></i><i>Despite these claimed advantages, proponents have failed to identify a high priority mission that would justify the expense of resolving the many remaining technical uncertainties. The technical risks of the PBR include:</p>
<p></i><i>+ Challenges in fabricating the high temperature fuel particles that are the key to this technology &#8212; efforts to date have failed to conclusively demonstrate that fuel particles can withstand the rigors of the reactor operating environment;</p>
<p></i><i>+ The low thermal capacity of the reactor core increases the risk of thermal damage to the core in off-normal conditions, or during reactor cool-down;</p>
<p></i><i>The particle bed reactor has been evaluated for applications that range from multi-megawatt burst-mode electric power supply for space-based weapons, to nuclear rocket engines for strategic defense interceptors and piloted interplanetary missions. Nearly $200 million has been spent by the Defense Department for development of this technology for military propulsion applications as part of the highly classified Timberwind program.</p>
<p></i><i>Beginning in 1990 the Defense Department, and the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization which sponsored Timberwind, began seeking support from other agencies for broader applications for this technology. In particular, efforts were made to apply the PBR technology to NASA&#8217;s new Space Exploration Initiative. This process culminated in the establishment by the Air Force of the Space Nuclear Thermal Propulsion program in late 1991, which assumed much of the work previously conducted under the Timberwind program.</p>
<p>&#8230; </i></p>
<p><a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_1.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.fas.org/nuke/space/c08tw_1.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 04:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;  Detonate an H-bomb (or two) at 100 miles altitude and both ground based and orbital radars are fried for hours if not permanently &lt;/i&gt;

I am not sure that the statement is factually, technically true for radiation-hardened electronics at the bottom of 100 miles of earth&#039;s atmosphere or high up in geostationary orbit. 

Besides, the main line of sensors will 
be the Space Based Infrared Satellite system. At any one time, Earth will shield half the lower SBIRS tier from high altitude nu-klar detonations.
The fact is, our missile defense sensor system might be able to survive such an attempt to blind it by means of thermonuclear bombs.

In addition to higher-tech lectronic radiation hardening, satellites as well as surface installations can be afforded additional radiation shielding by simple mass -- armored satellites!. 


There would be a lot of elctromagnetic noise in the atmosphere from re-radiating aerosal particles for hours after a nuclear air burst, but that EM noise wouldn&#039;t blind SBIRS.

 
Anyway, what are the alternatives to missile defense? The alternatives are 

(a) to meekly accept Mutually Assured Destruction Parity with China, Iran, etc.; 

or

(b) a first strike if and when appropriate, perhaps using high altitude fission bomb explosions to blind the opposition&#039;s air defenses.

By the way, I think Project Orion is a wacky idea.  
On the other hand, fission-thermal propulsion using liquid H2 as the propellant is a good idea. A specific impulse of about 1K seconds may be achieved using fission thermal propulsion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>  Detonate an H-bomb (or two) at 100 miles altitude and both ground based and orbital radars are fried for hours if not permanently </i></p>
<p>I am not sure that the statement is factually, technically true for radiation-hardened electronics at the bottom of 100 miles of earth&#8217;s atmosphere or high up in geostationary orbit. </p>
<p>Besides, the main line of sensors will<br />
be the Space Based Infrared Satellite system. At any one time, Earth will shield half the lower SBIRS tier from high altitude nu-klar detonations.<br />
The fact is, our missile defense sensor system might be able to survive such an attempt to blind it by means of thermonuclear bombs.</p>
<p>In addition to higher-tech lectronic radiation hardening, satellites as well as surface installations can be afforded additional radiation shielding by simple mass &#8212; armored satellites!. </p>
<p>There would be a lot of elctromagnetic noise in the atmosphere from re-radiating aerosal particles for hours after a nuclear air burst, but that EM noise wouldn&#8217;t blind SBIRS.</p>
<p>Anyway, what are the alternatives to missile defense? The alternatives are </p>
<p>(a) to meekly accept Mutually Assured Destruction Parity with China, Iran, etc.; </p>
<p>or</p>
<p>(b) a first strike if and when appropriate, perhaps using high altitude fission bomb explosions to blind the opposition&#8217;s air defenses.</p>
<p>By the way, I think Project Orion is a wacky idea.<br />
On the other hand, fission-thermal propulsion using liquid H2 as the propellant is a good idea. A specific impulse of about 1K seconds may be achieved using fission thermal propulsion.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Dietz</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5130</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Dietz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 01:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David: he may mean the &lt;i&gt;attacker&lt;/i&gt; would detonate bombs up there, to make defense radars less effective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David: he may mean the <i>attacker</i> would detonate bombs up there, to make defense radars less effective.</p>
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		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/09/23/recycling-icbms/#comment-5129</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=668#comment-5129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; Some people also overlook the implications of this for missile defense. Detonate an H-bomb (or two) at 100 miles altitude and both ground based and orbital radars are fried for hours if not permanently &lt;/i&gt;

Contemporary US strategic and theater missile defense systems use no nuclear, nucular or nu-clear warheads.

So please spare us the pinko red herrings.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Some people also overlook the implications of this for missile defense. Detonate an H-bomb (or two) at 100 miles altitude and both ground based and orbital radars are fried for hours if not permanently </i></p>
<p>Contemporary US strategic and theater missile defense systems use no nuclear, nucular or nu-clear warheads.</p>
<p>So please spare us the pinko red herrings.</p>
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