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	<title>Comments on: CEV lobbying</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5602</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Apollo selected LOR not because the designers wished to avoid EOR, but because it was quicker - John Houbolt managed to convince them that LOR was the only way to meet Kennedy&#039;s deadline. &lt;/i&gt;

Yes, timeliness mattered back then.


]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Apollo selected LOR not because the designers wished to avoid EOR, but because it was quicker &#8211; John Houbolt managed to convince them that LOR was the only way to meet Kennedy&#8217;s deadline. </i></p>
<p>Yes, timeliness mattered back then.</p>
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		<title>By: Nemo</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5601</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nemo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2005 03:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5601</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;
The new proposal requires what the Apollo designers wanted to avoid -- Earth orbit rendezvous of two launches per each lunar mission.
&lt;/i&gt;

Nope. Actually, Wernher von Braun thought Earth Orbit Rendezvous would result in lower operational cost compared to Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. Apollo selected LOR not because the designers wished to avoid EOR, but because it was quicker - John Houbolt managed to convince them that LOR was the only way to meet Kennedy&#039;s deadline. That was one example of how the crash-program mentality led to design decisions that would have been made differently if money were more important than time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
The new proposal requires what the Apollo designers wanted to avoid &#8212; Earth orbit rendezvous of two launches per each lunar mission.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Nope. Actually, Wernher von Braun thought Earth Orbit Rendezvous would result in lower operational cost compared to Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. Apollo selected LOR not because the designers wished to avoid EOR, but because it was quicker &#8211; John Houbolt managed to convince them that LOR was the only way to meet Kennedy&#8217;s deadline. That was one example of how the crash-program mentality led to design decisions that would have been made differently if money were more important than time.</p>
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		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5600</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, I think I see what you mean.

&lt;i&gt;The S-IVB third stage, also used as a second stage on the Saturn IB, was manufactured by Douglas Aircraft. It measured 58 feet, 8 inches tall by 21 feet, 8 inches wide. The S-IVB employed one Rocketdyne J-2 engine which could produce a thrust of 200,000 pounds. 

&lt;i&gt;A NASA-designed and built Instrument Unit (IU) attached to the top of the S-IVB by special adapter measured 3 feet tall by 21 feet, 8 inches wide. The IU housed equipment which controlled all electronic commands for Saturn V control and guidance during ascent. &lt;/i&gt;

In my low cost proposal, a Shuttle would launch the capsule, a.k.a. Command Module, and the Lunar Excursion Module. 

The heavy version of a Delta IV would launch our third stage/space tug, which might incorporate the functions of both the Saturn IVB third stage and the Apollo Command Module. This third stage/space tug could accelerate the Apollo capsule and LEM to lunar orbit, then drop its tanks for the return home in the process of departing lunar orbit.

This lunar mission third stage/space tug would be a derivative of a space tug developed to help complete the space station.

Note that NASA&#039;s new space architecture requires Earth orbit rendezvous of two launches per each lunar mission, and that this proposal requires docking the Capsule on Steroids with an L2/O2 &quot;Departure Stage&quot; in order to fly to the Moon.

&lt;/i&gt;

/////////////////

&lt;i&gt;A NASA-designed and built Instrument Unit (IU) attached to the top of the S-IVB by special adapter measured 3 feet tall by 21 feet, 8 inches wide. The IU housed equipment which controlled all electronic commands for Saturn V control and guidance during ascent.&lt;/i&gt;

Nowadays, aside from the Inertial Measurement Unit, one could replace most of that with a cheap PC.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I think I see what you mean.</p>
<p><i>The S-IVB third stage, also used as a second stage on the Saturn IB, was manufactured by Douglas Aircraft. It measured 58 feet, 8 inches tall by 21 feet, 8 inches wide. The S-IVB employed one Rocketdyne J-2 engine which could produce a thrust of 200,000 pounds. </p>
<p></i><i>A NASA-designed and built Instrument Unit (IU) attached to the top of the S-IVB by special adapter measured 3 feet tall by 21 feet, 8 inches wide. The IU housed equipment which controlled all electronic commands for Saturn V control and guidance during ascent. </i></p>
<p>In my low cost proposal, a Shuttle would launch the capsule, a.k.a. Command Module, and the Lunar Excursion Module. </p>
<p>The heavy version of a Delta IV would launch our third stage/space tug, which might incorporate the functions of both the Saturn IVB third stage and the Apollo Command Module. This third stage/space tug could accelerate the Apollo capsule and LEM to lunar orbit, then drop its tanks for the return home in the process of departing lunar orbit.</p>
<p>This lunar mission third stage/space tug would be a derivative of a space tug developed to help complete the space station.</p>
<p>Note that NASA&#8217;s new space architecture requires Earth orbit rendezvous of two launches per each lunar mission, and that this proposal requires docking the Capsule on Steroids with an L2/O2 &#8220;Departure Stage&#8221; in order to fly to the Moon.</p>
<p>/////////////////</p>
<p><i>A NASA-designed and built Instrument Unit (IU) attached to the top of the S-IVB by special adapter measured 3 feet tall by 21 feet, 8 inches wide. The IU housed equipment which controlled all electronic commands for Saturn V control and guidance during ascent.</i></p>
<p>Nowadays, aside from the Inertial Measurement Unit, one could replace most of that with a cheap PC.</p>
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		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5599</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2005 00:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[S-IVB stage? I dunno.

I have been advised that the proposed new architecture requires Earth orbit rendezvous of one Saturn V functional equivalent plus one Saturn IB equivalent -- that&#039;s what I call the corndog missile, the one that uses a skinny-looking single solid rocket booster under the larger diameter second and top stages.

The new proposal requires what the Apollo designers wanted to avoid -- Earth orbit rendezvous of two launches per each lunar mission.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>S-IVB stage? I dunno.</p>
<p>I have been advised that the proposed new architecture requires Earth orbit rendezvous of one Saturn V functional equivalent plus one Saturn IB equivalent &#8212; that&#8217;s what I call the corndog missile, the one that uses a skinny-looking single solid rocket booster under the larger diameter second and top stages.</p>
<p>The new proposal requires what the Apollo designers wanted to avoid &#8212; Earth orbit rendezvous of two launches per each lunar mission.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Hoffman</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5598</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Hoffman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All of the above is in reference to the two module (Crew and Service) CEV design - launch vehicles are a different issue.

 Just a minor question on your &quot;Shuttle+Apollo CSM+Apollo LM&quot; architecture - where does the S-IVB stage analogue fit?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of the above is in reference to the two module (Crew and Service) CEV design &#8211; launch vehicles are a different issue.</p>
<p> Just a minor question on your &#8220;Shuttle+Apollo CSM+Apollo LM&#8221; architecture &#8211; where does the S-IVB stage analogue fit?</p>
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		<title>By: David Davenport</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Davenport]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 22:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; Yes, having an experienced workforce&lt;/i&gt;

Experienced at what? Building those no-count External Tanks?


&lt;i&gt; and being able to use existing (and amortized) facilities is such a negative trade &lt;/i&gt;

The the cost of designing, building, and testing the two proposed new launch missiles and the Apollo on Steroids (TM) capsule is not yet amortized.

&lt;i&gt; for a limited-budget program in a period of significant pressure on the federal budget...&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s a good argument for using a different, lower cost architecture for manned lunar missions. Maybe  a design requiring one Shuttle launch and one EELV launch to lift one reverse-engineered Apollo set. Launch the Command capsule in a Shuttle&#039;s cargo bay. Save all kinds of $ that way, sidestepping the need to develop a new &quot;man-rated&quot; launch system.

The Shuttle system is fully amortized, innit, with an experienced supporting cast of thousands?
Heck, this alternative architecture would also keep the existing STS team working together longer.


&lt;i&gt;Particularly when the goal is series production. &lt;/i&gt;

My lower cost alternative design would allow continued, &quot;series&quot; production of those groovalicious SRB&#039;s, ET&#039;s and SSME&#039;s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Yes, having an experienced workforce</i></p>
<p>Experienced at what? Building those no-count External Tanks?</p>
<p><i> and being able to use existing (and amortized) facilities is such a negative trade </i></p>
<p>The the cost of designing, building, and testing the two proposed new launch missiles and the Apollo on Steroids (TM) capsule is not yet amortized.</p>
<p><i> for a limited-budget program in a period of significant pressure on the federal budget&#8230;</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s a good argument for using a different, lower cost architecture for manned lunar missions. Maybe  a design requiring one Shuttle launch and one EELV launch to lift one reverse-engineered Apollo set. Launch the Command capsule in a Shuttle&#8217;s cargo bay. Save all kinds of $ that way, sidestepping the need to develop a new &#8220;man-rated&#8221; launch system.</p>
<p>The Shuttle system is fully amortized, innit, with an experienced supporting cast of thousands?<br />
Heck, this alternative architecture would also keep the existing STS team working together longer.</p>
<p><i>Particularly when the goal is series production. </i></p>
<p>My lower cost alternative design would allow continued, &#8220;series&#8221; production of those groovalicious SRB&#8217;s, ET&#8217;s and SSME&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Hoffman</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5596</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam Hoffman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5596</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, having an experienced workforce and being able to use existing (and amortized) facilities is such a negative trade for a limited-budget program in a period of significant pressure on the federal budget...

 Particularly when the goal is series production.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, having an experienced workforce and being able to use existing (and amortized) facilities is such a negative trade for a limited-budget program in a period of significant pressure on the federal budget&#8230;</p>
<p> Particularly when the goal is series production.</p>
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		<title>By: Dfens</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5595</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dfens]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your heart is in the right place, but you really think private industry gets the politics out?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your heart is in the right place, but you really think private industry gets the politics out?</p>
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		<title>By: Evon Speckhard</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evon Speckhard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello, this is exactly the reason NASA needs to buy services from private industry instead of biulding them themselves.  Get the politics out of the equation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, this is exactly the reason NASA needs to buy services from private industry instead of biulding them themselves.  Get the politics out of the equation.</p>
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		<title>By: kert</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2005/10/13/cev-lobbying/#comment-5593</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=682#comment-5593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[the word &quot;oink&quot; comes to mind]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the word &#8220;oink&#8221; comes to mind</p>
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