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	<title>Comments on: NASA criticism from the right</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: David Portree</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7544</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Portree]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Apr 2006 05:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s irresponsible to say things like, &quot;I believe so strongly in space that I&#039;ll support Bush and DeLay.&quot; It&#039;s like saying, &quot;I believe so strongly in my left toe that I&#039;ll shoot myself in the head.&quot; Also, how can we blast off for the planets if our launch pad is a wreck? Never mind that Bush &amp; DeLay aren&#039;t doing for space what they say they are (the Bush VSE isn&#039;t about getting into the Solar System, it&#039;s about replacing the Shuttle). 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s irresponsible to say things like, &#8220;I believe so strongly in space that I&#8217;ll support Bush and DeLay.&#8221; It&#8217;s like saying, &#8220;I believe so strongly in my left toe that I&#8217;ll shoot myself in the head.&#8221; Also, how can we blast off for the planets if our launch pad is a wreck? Never mind that Bush &#038; DeLay aren&#8217;t doing for space what they say they are (the Bush VSE isn&#8217;t about getting into the Solar System, it&#8217;s about replacing the Shuttle). </p>
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		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7543</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7543</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bart:  &lt;i&gt;Are any of the current private launchers on the drawing board big enough to handle heavy-lift work like bringing up ISS parts? &lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not sure this is necessary.  First, the Station is clearly capable of surviving and being a market in its current configuration.  Any additional construction is a bonus -- albeit an important one since it increases the size of the potential launch market.

Second, if and when the Station is complete, any further evolution can easily use newly-designed components launched on the vehicles of the day.  The only absolutely critical heavy elements that I am aware of are the gyroscopes, but I can also think of some workarounds (which would be expensive, but also create a bigger launch market).  Maybe second generation gyroscopes could be lighter?

In any case, I don&#039;t think pure &lt;i&gt;maintenance&lt;/i&gt; of the Space Station requires the Shuttle or anything like it.

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bart:  <i>Are any of the current private launchers on the drawing board big enough to handle heavy-lift work like bringing up ISS parts? </i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure this is necessary.  First, the Station is clearly capable of surviving and being a market in its current configuration.  Any additional construction is a bonus &#8212; albeit an important one since it increases the size of the potential launch market.</p>
<p>Second, if and when the Station is complete, any further evolution can easily use newly-designed components launched on the vehicles of the day.  The only absolutely critical heavy elements that I am aware of are the gyroscopes, but I can also think of some workarounds (which would be expensive, but also create a bigger launch market).  Maybe second generation gyroscopes could be lighter?</p>
<p>In any case, I don&#8217;t think pure <i>maintenance</i> of the Space Station requires the Shuttle or anything like it.</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
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		<title>By: Bart</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7542</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Al:

I must confess to being one of those pro-space ISS critics; I also must confess that Donald&#039;s article(s) on the space station are starting mellow my take on the thing.  I like the idea that NASA is strolling toward the idea of allowing the private sector to resupply the station, thus providing at least one immediate market for all of the aspiring private launch service companies out there.

Reagan was originally sold on the station (remember Space Station &quot;Freedom?&quot;) as a place for developing commerce and manufacturing in orbit.  It would be built in ten years--by 1994--and cost $8 billion.  That didn&#039;t happen.  However, if the station was doing that, other things could follow.

Are any of the current private launchers on the drawing board big enough to handle heavy-lift work like bringing up ISS parts?  I know X-33 was designed to (theoretically) do that; the full-size Delta Clipper might have done so as well.  In any case, the first step is to get the private sector to start handling resupply missions, and then--God and the Congress willing--take over launching and completing the remaining pieces of the station.  That would allow NASA to decommission the Shuttle and focus on completing ISS components, developing CEV, and maintaining its science programs.

What the heck, dream big!

/b]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Al:</p>
<p>I must confess to being one of those pro-space ISS critics; I also must confess that Donald&#8217;s article(s) on the space station are starting mellow my take on the thing.  I like the idea that NASA is strolling toward the idea of allowing the private sector to resupply the station, thus providing at least one immediate market for all of the aspiring private launch service companies out there.</p>
<p>Reagan was originally sold on the station (remember Space Station &#8220;Freedom?&#8221;) as a place for developing commerce and manufacturing in orbit.  It would be built in ten years&#8211;by 1994&#8211;and cost $8 billion.  That didn&#8217;t happen.  However, if the station was doing that, other things could follow.</p>
<p>Are any of the current private launchers on the drawing board big enough to handle heavy-lift work like bringing up ISS parts?  I know X-33 was designed to (theoretically) do that; the full-size Delta Clipper might have done so as well.  In any case, the first step is to get the private sector to start handling resupply missions, and then&#8211;God and the Congress willing&#8211;take over launching and completing the remaining pieces of the station.  That would allow NASA to decommission the Shuttle and focus on completing ISS components, developing CEV, and maintaining its science programs.</p>
<p>What the heck, dream big!</p>
<p>/b</p>
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		<title>By: Al Fansome</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Al Fansome]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 03:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think the thoughtful pro-space critics of the space station would disagree with you about the value of a space station.

I think their primary point is &quot;Did it really have to cost $100B and take over 30 years to complete this project&quot;?

The answer, of course, is &quot;No, it did not.&quot;

- Al]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the thoughtful pro-space critics of the space station would disagree with you about the value of a space station.</p>
<p>I think their primary point is &#8220;Did it really have to cost $100B and take over 30 years to complete this project&#8221;?</p>
<p>The answer, of course, is &#8220;No, it did not.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8211; Al</p>
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		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7540</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 01:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7540</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Which is why I think the ultimate importance of the Space Station project is vastly underestimated today.  Learning to build and live in space for extended periods is much more difficult -- and probably of more moment -- than quick dashes to Earth&#039;s moon.  

A permanent presence on the moon, and the attendent experience surviving on the type of body that dominates the inner Solar System, will be another step down this path.

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is why I think the ultimate importance of the Space Station project is vastly underestimated today.  Learning to build and live in space for extended periods is much more difficult &#8212; and probably of more moment &#8212; than quick dashes to Earth&#8217;s moon.  </p>
<p>A permanent presence on the moon, and the attendent experience surviving on the type of body that dominates the inner Solar System, will be another step down this path.</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
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		<title>By: Al Fansome</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Al Fansome]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 01:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Donald,

I agree with that point.  In that manner, NASA has already had to make significant adjustments in its thinking betweeen 1-2 week space shuttle trips and 3-6 month space station visits.  They are much different operationally, in many ways.

Deep space expeditions will take it another step along that path.

- Al]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donald,</p>
<p>I agree with that point.  In that manner, NASA has already had to make significant adjustments in its thinking betweeen 1-2 week space shuttle trips and 3-6 month space station visits.  They are much different operationally, in many ways.</p>
<p>Deep space expeditions will take it another step along that path.</p>
<p>&#8211; Al</p>
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		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;You are usually more careful than that&lt;/i&gt;.  

Granted, Al.  I wrote that late at night as I was racing out of the office and I accept that it may be a little too absolute.  However, I stand by its basic theme.  Deep space travel, especially the initial expeditions, will be very, very different from getting into LEO, and there are few if any comparable analogues in recent human history.  The crew of a Navy ship will have a far greater understanding of the challenges involved in getting to Mars than will any airman.  Likewise, I suspect, the supporting engineers.

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You are usually more careful than that</i>.  </p>
<p>Granted, Al.  I wrote that late at night as I was racing out of the office and I accept that it may be a little too absolute.  However, I stand by its basic theme.  Deep space travel, especially the initial expeditions, will be very, very different from getting into LEO, and there are few if any comparable analogues in recent human history.  The crew of a Navy ship will have a far greater understanding of the challenges involved in getting to Mars than will any airman.  Likewise, I suspect, the supporting engineers.</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
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		<title>By: Al Fansome</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7537</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Al Fansome]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 20:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7537</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The X-plane experience, and the rest, is probably relevant for getting to LEO; it is completely irrelivant for exploring or settling the rest of the Solar System. That will have much more in common with this history of deep-sea shipping than with aircraft development.&quot;

Donald,

I don&#039;t disagree with your analogy of the deep sea (in fact, Mark Gittleman, VP of Oceaneering Space Systems has a thoughtful letter to editor in Space News this week on the subject of humans or robots), but your statement &quot;completely irrelevant&quot; is a pretty definitive statement.  You are usually more careful than that.

Instead of &quot;x-planes&quot;, I suggest use of the word x-vehicles.  The distinction here is a spacecraft/vehicle whose primary (if not sole) purpose is to test and demonstrate new technologies by actual flight test.  The operational purpose is secondary at best (some suggest that any operational objectives can be dangerous.)

In fact, this already happens for in-space technology beyond LEO.  Examples: Orbital Express, Deep Space 1, Clementine, XSS-11, XSS-12, Space Technology 5, 6, 7 and 8, Mercury and Gemini (they were x-vehicles that demonstrated techologies and operations leading to the Apollo capsule/systems), Discoverer II (SBR demo cancelled by Congress), Midcourse Space Experiment, Mighty Sat 1/2, etc.  There are many others.

I suggest that x-vehicles (broadly defined), to prove &amp; demonstrate new technologies beyond LEO, will play an important role in exploring (and settling) the rest of the Solar System.

Assuming a broad definition, you can even think of some of NASA&#039;s recently announced prizes as meeting this definition.

- Al

PS - On the subject of Mercury and Gemini as x-vehicles, leading to Apollo, it is interesting to note that Apollo was a &quot;spiral development&quot; program.  But that is a dirty word this days on the 9th floor of NASA HQ.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The X-plane experience, and the rest, is probably relevant for getting to LEO; it is completely irrelivant for exploring or settling the rest of the Solar System. That will have much more in common with this history of deep-sea shipping than with aircraft development.&#8221;</p>
<p>Donald,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with your analogy of the deep sea (in fact, Mark Gittleman, VP of Oceaneering Space Systems has a thoughtful letter to editor in Space News this week on the subject of humans or robots), but your statement &#8220;completely irrelevant&#8221; is a pretty definitive statement.  You are usually more careful than that.</p>
<p>Instead of &#8220;x-planes&#8221;, I suggest use of the word x-vehicles.  The distinction here is a spacecraft/vehicle whose primary (if not sole) purpose is to test and demonstrate new technologies by actual flight test.  The operational purpose is secondary at best (some suggest that any operational objectives can be dangerous.)</p>
<p>In fact, this already happens for in-space technology beyond LEO.  Examples: Orbital Express, Deep Space 1, Clementine, XSS-11, XSS-12, Space Technology 5, 6, 7 and 8, Mercury and Gemini (they were x-vehicles that demonstrated techologies and operations leading to the Apollo capsule/systems), Discoverer II (SBR demo cancelled by Congress), Midcourse Space Experiment, Mighty Sat 1/2, etc.  There are many others.</p>
<p>I suggest that x-vehicles (broadly defined), to prove &#038; demonstrate new technologies beyond LEO, will play an important role in exploring (and settling) the rest of the Solar System.</p>
<p>Assuming a broad definition, you can even think of some of NASA&#8217;s recently announced prizes as meeting this definition.</p>
<p>&#8211; Al</p>
<p>PS &#8211; On the subject of Mercury and Gemini as x-vehicles, leading to Apollo, it is interesting to note that Apollo was a &#8220;spiral development&#8221; program.  But that is a dirty word this days on the 9th floor of NASA HQ.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7536</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 19:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or, as your article suggested, the transcontinental railroad.  A worthwhile read, thank you.  Oh, and here&#039;s one I found re: large-scale projects.  It&#039;s a bitter pill for the free-marketeer in me, but worth reading:

http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/space.htm

Cheers,

/b]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or, as your article suggested, the transcontinental railroad.  A worthwhile read, thank you.  Oh, and here&#8217;s one I found re: large-scale projects.  It&#8217;s a bitter pill for the free-marketeer in me, but worth reading:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/space.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.transhumanist.com/volume4/space.htm</a></p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>/b</p>
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		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2006/04/03/nasa-criticism-from-the-right/#comment-7535</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 03:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.districtofbaseball.com/spacepolitics/?p=919#comment-7535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The X-plane experience, and the rest, is probably relevant for getting to LEO; it is completely irrelivant for exploring or settling the rest of the Solar System.  That will have much more in common with this history of deep-sea shipping than with aircraft development.

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The X-plane experience, and the rest, is probably relevant for getting to LEO; it is completely irrelivant for exploring or settling the rest of the Solar System.  That will have much more in common with this history of deep-sea shipping than with aircraft development.</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
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