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	<title>Comments on: Florida Today sees &#8220;signs of trouble&#8221; in Ares 1</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Artemus</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30690</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Artemus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The U.S. military already has extensive experience with large segmented SRBs (Titan III and IV). There is no current or contemplated requirement for a large segmented SRB, but if one arose, they&#039;d start from the Titan design, which was operational before the Shuttle was even on the drawing board.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The U.S. military already has extensive experience with large segmented SRBs (Titan III and IV). There is no current or contemplated requirement for a large segmented SRB, but if one arose, they&#8217;d start from the Titan design, which was operational before the Shuttle was even on the drawing board.</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30596</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30596</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;The point I was trying to illustrate was that the military MIGHT have a vested interest in having a big SRB in the inventory, personally I have no problem with that.&lt;/em&gt;

It doesn&#039;t.  This is about pork, not national security.  ATK doesn&#039;t want to give up their contract.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The point I was trying to illustrate was that the military MIGHT have a vested interest in having a big SRB in the inventory, personally I have no problem with that.</em></p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t.  This is about pork, not national security.  ATK doesn&#8217;t want to give up their contract.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladislaw</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30528</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vladislaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 02:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The point I was trying to illustrate was that the military MIGHT have a vested interest in having a big SRB in the inventory, personally I have no problem with that. I was trying to provide some rationalization for the path NASA chose when there was other methods and LVs that could have put up a basic orbiter. As one poster had said before, most of the RLV talk was a lot of bogus hype and was not ready for instant use. 
On that point I tend to disagree, I feel there is a lot of options more suited to JUST putting people into orbit. The statement about hanging a rocket under a plane to launch was not plausable at this time, I believe is incorrect.  Using a hybred rocket to put a three man capsule up that would really not even need docking avionics because the robotic arm could do that.  Plane launching means no launch pad and all the insurance, environmental, labor and service costs associated with them. You would have airports that would already be qualified for handling non toxic hybred fuels. By using a small 3 man system you could achieve a lot higher launch rates. Everyone knows that is ONE of the key enablers. 
Also you lesson the risk of losing 6-9 astronauts a time when a catastrophic failure occurs, lowering insurance liablity premiums, that also helps lower launch costs.

Personally, I honestly do not understand NASA&#039;s approach, WHY drag your car along when you are taking a cruise ship across the ocean?

WHY drag your 20 ton EARTH landing orbiter to the MOON? At this stage of our space program we should have a lot more vehicle types. Use a fleet of 3-4 man capsules and planes to put up our astronauts to the ISS, use a manned shuttle POD to dock with the Inflatable or Metal &quot;can&quot; that serves as your travel habitat and dock that with the ARES V lunar lander and EDS while sending the robotic shuttle pod back to the ISS and hybernate. You do not have to bring your orbiter back to earth at the higher Lunar return speed and it lowers TPS costs because the Lunar Habit stays in LEO and gets reserviced for the next lunar mission.

We should have mastered a simple commerical &quot;POP &amp; DROP&quot; system by now. Heck it would be like bungie jumping or an extreme sport. Cheap Ballistic returns done at a commerical rate can be shown as a business case, and that is the bottom line. It wouldn&#039;t be pretty, it would do no science or site seeing just pop and drop at a commerical flight rate.

The russians are already jacking their rates and we will be seeing 40 mil a pop now instead of 20-25. ESPECIALLY since NASA paid then 719  million for 15 astronauts at 41 million a head and three cargo launches, they run about 105 mil from the 719.

They are creating a back log of customers because of the shuttle being retired.
America REALLY has to get over this &quot;one vehicle for all&quot; mentally, Not only is it inefficient thus more expensive but ALSO lowers productivity. Can you imagine if the only vehicle america had on the road were semi trucks? we have literally hundreds of vehicle types for a LIMITED land area BUT for the VASTNESS of space we feel ONE should do the trick. To me, that is insanity on a bun.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point I was trying to illustrate was that the military MIGHT have a vested interest in having a big SRB in the inventory, personally I have no problem with that. I was trying to provide some rationalization for the path NASA chose when there was other methods and LVs that could have put up a basic orbiter. As one poster had said before, most of the RLV talk was a lot of bogus hype and was not ready for instant use.<br />
On that point I tend to disagree, I feel there is a lot of options more suited to JUST putting people into orbit. The statement about hanging a rocket under a plane to launch was not plausable at this time, I believe is incorrect.  Using a hybred rocket to put a three man capsule up that would really not even need docking avionics because the robotic arm could do that.  Plane launching means no launch pad and all the insurance, environmental, labor and service costs associated with them. You would have airports that would already be qualified for handling non toxic hybred fuels. By using a small 3 man system you could achieve a lot higher launch rates. Everyone knows that is ONE of the key enablers.<br />
Also you lesson the risk of losing 6-9 astronauts a time when a catastrophic failure occurs, lowering insurance liablity premiums, that also helps lower launch costs.</p>
<p>Personally, I honestly do not understand NASA&#8217;s approach, WHY drag your car along when you are taking a cruise ship across the ocean?</p>
<p>WHY drag your 20 ton EARTH landing orbiter to the MOON? At this stage of our space program we should have a lot more vehicle types. Use a fleet of 3-4 man capsules and planes to put up our astronauts to the ISS, use a manned shuttle POD to dock with the Inflatable or Metal &#8220;can&#8221; that serves as your travel habitat and dock that with the ARES V lunar lander and EDS while sending the robotic shuttle pod back to the ISS and hybernate. You do not have to bring your orbiter back to earth at the higher Lunar return speed and it lowers TPS costs because the Lunar Habit stays in LEO and gets reserviced for the next lunar mission.</p>
<p>We should have mastered a simple commerical &#8220;POP &amp; DROP&#8221; system by now. Heck it would be like bungie jumping or an extreme sport. Cheap Ballistic returns done at a commerical rate can be shown as a business case, and that is the bottom line. It wouldn&#8217;t be pretty, it would do no science or site seeing just pop and drop at a commerical flight rate.</p>
<p>The russians are already jacking their rates and we will be seeing 40 mil a pop now instead of 20-25. ESPECIALLY since NASA paid then 719  million for 15 astronauts at 41 million a head and three cargo launches, they run about 105 mil from the 719.</p>
<p>They are creating a back log of customers because of the shuttle being retired.<br />
America REALLY has to get over this &#8220;one vehicle for all&#8221; mentally, Not only is it inefficient thus more expensive but ALSO lowers productivity. Can you imagine if the only vehicle america had on the road were semi trucks? we have literally hundreds of vehicle types for a LIMITED land area BUT for the VASTNESS of space we feel ONE should do the trick. To me, that is insanity on a bun.</p>
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		<title>By: Ferris Valyn</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ferris Valyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[vladislaw - well, of course they are relatives - they are offspring of the US government.  NASA is also a relative to NOAA, the EPA, the DOE, and all the other federal agencies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>vladislaw &#8211; well, of course they are relatives &#8211; they are offspring of the US government.  NASA is also a relative to NOAA, the EPA, the DOE, and all the other federal agencies.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladislaw</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30512</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vladislaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30512</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[â€œWeâ€™ve always had a strong relationship with the Defense Department, and we expect that will continue,â€ said Robert â€œDocâ€ Mirelson, NASAâ€™s press chief in Washington.

Although NASA now accepts astronaut applications from qualified individuals whether civilian or military, virtually all shuttle mission commanders still come from a military background.

After President Bush appointed Sean Oâ€™Keefe the agencyâ€™s administrator in 2001, the new director pressed for closer cooperation between the U.S. space agency and the Department of Defense.

â€œBecause of the size and weight of some of the classified DOD payloads,â€ Nelson said, â€œthe shuttle was the only way to put them up.â€

â€œI see no reason to keep an artificial separation if a NASA program has a capability that the DOD can use. Thereâ€™s no reason not to take advantage of it,â€said George â€œPinkyâ€ Nelson

Retired Air Force Col. William â€œPeteâ€ Knight agrees. In 1967, he attained a speed record of 4,520 mph while piloting one of NASAâ€™s X-15 rocket research aircraft over the Mojave.

â€œThe X-15 was a joint Air Force and NASA program. It was a benefit of both parties, who each brought something to the table,â€

Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., member of the Senate committee that oversees NASAâ€™s budget, has urged Oâ€™Keefe to be cautious about strengthening NASAâ€™s cooperation with the Pentagon. 

Senior fellow Michael Oâ€™Hanlon of the independent Brookings Institution in Washington believes collaboration between NASA and DOD is valid, though, he noted, â€œthe military will always have its secrets.â€

&quot;Military, NASA linked from start&quot;
By Wayne Specht, Stars and Stripes
Pacific edition, Monday, February 10, 2003 
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&amp;article=12459&amp;archive=true


The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA, pronounced /ËˆnÃ¦sÉ™/) is an agency of the United States government, responsible for the nation&#039;s public space program. NASA was established on July 29, 1958, by the National Aeronautics and Space Act.[3]
In addition to the space program, it is also responsible for long-term civilian and *military aerospace research.*

Elements of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency (of which von Braun&#039;s team was a part) and the Naval Research Laboratory were incorporated into NASA.

Representatives from the U.S. Army (M.L. Raines, LTC, USA), Navy (P.L. Havenstein, CDR, USN) and Air Force (K.G. Lindell, COL, USAF) were selected/requested to provide assistance to the NASA Space Task Group through coordination with the existing U.S. military research and defense contracting infrastructure, and technical assistance resulting from experimental aircraft (and the associated military test pilot pool) development in the 1950s. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA

maybe not a little brother but you can not deny they are at the very least RELATIVES.

Vladislaw]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>â€œWeâ€™ve always had a strong relationship with the Defense Department, and we expect that will continue,â€ said Robert â€œDocâ€ Mirelson, NASAâ€™s press chief in Washington.</p>
<p>Although NASA now accepts astronaut applications from qualified individuals whether civilian or military, virtually all shuttle mission commanders still come from a military background.</p>
<p>After President Bush appointed Sean Oâ€™Keefe the agencyâ€™s administrator in 2001, the new director pressed for closer cooperation between the U.S. space agency and the Department of Defense.</p>
<p>â€œBecause of the size and weight of some of the classified DOD payloads,â€ Nelson said, â€œthe shuttle was the only way to put them up.â€</p>
<p>â€œI see no reason to keep an artificial separation if a NASA program has a capability that the DOD can use. Thereâ€™s no reason not to take advantage of it,â€said George â€œPinkyâ€ Nelson</p>
<p>Retired Air Force Col. William â€œPeteâ€ Knight agrees. In 1967, he attained a speed record of 4,520 mph while piloting one of NASAâ€™s X-15 rocket research aircraft over the Mojave.</p>
<p>â€œThe X-15 was a joint Air Force and NASA program. It was a benefit of both parties, who each brought something to the table,â€</p>
<p>Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., member of the Senate committee that oversees NASAâ€™s budget, has urged Oâ€™Keefe to be cautious about strengthening NASAâ€™s cooperation with the Pentagon. </p>
<p>Senior fellow Michael Oâ€™Hanlon of the independent Brookings Institution in Washington believes collaboration between NASA and DOD is valid, though, he noted, â€œthe military will always have its secrets.â€</p>
<p>&#8220;Military, NASA linked from start&#8221;<br />
By Wayne Specht, Stars and Stripes<br />
Pacific edition, Monday, February 10, 2003<br />
<a href="http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&#038;article=12459&#038;archive=true" rel="nofollow">http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&#038;article=12459&#038;archive=true</a></p>
<p>The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA, pronounced /ËˆnÃ¦sÉ™/) is an agency of the United States government, responsible for the nation&#8217;s public space program. NASA was established on July 29, 1958, by the National Aeronautics and Space Act.[3]<br />
In addition to the space program, it is also responsible for long-term civilian and *military aerospace research.*</p>
<p>Elements of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency (of which von Braun&#8217;s team was a part) and the Naval Research Laboratory were incorporated into NASA.</p>
<p>Representatives from the U.S. Army (M.L. Raines, LTC, USA), Navy (P.L. Havenstein, CDR, USN) and Air Force (K.G. Lindell, COL, USAF) were selected/requested to provide assistance to the NASA Space Task Group through coordination with the existing U.S. military research and defense contracting infrastructure, and technical assistance resulting from experimental aircraft (and the associated military test pilot pool) development in the 1950s.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA</a></p>
<p>maybe not a little brother but you can not deny they are at the very least RELATIVES.</p>
<p>Vladislaw</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30506</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30506</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Is not nasa a little brother to the defense dept?&lt;/em&gt;

It is not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Is not nasa a little brother to the defense dept?</em></p>
<p>It is not.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladislaw</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30502</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vladislaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30502</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is not nasa a little brother to the defense dept? SRBs burning powdered alum. is just about the most nasty environmental formula you could choose so why did they choose HUGE solid rockets? I AWAYS just assumed the military wanted the capability to slap big warheads on big solid rockets
so the big SRBs were going to continued to be developed and be a part of ANY NASA program so the USA would always have that capability IF they needed to. 

Vladislaw]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is not nasa a little brother to the defense dept? SRBs burning powdered alum. is just about the most nasty environmental formula you could choose so why did they choose HUGE solid rockets? I AWAYS just assumed the military wanted the capability to slap big warheads on big solid rockets<br />
so the big SRBs were going to continued to be developed and be a part of ANY NASA program so the USA would always have that capability IF they needed to. </p>
<p>Vladislaw</p>
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		<title>By: reader</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30492</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[reader]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I was kind of amazed at the time that no one, at least no one in the press, including the space press, seemed to think it a conflict of interest, or an issue at all.&lt;/i&gt;
The first rule of the Old Boys club is: you dont talk about the Old Boys club.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I was kind of amazed at the time that no one, at least no one in the press, including the space press, seemed to think it a conflict of interest, or an issue at all.</i><br />
The first rule of the Old Boys club is: you dont talk about the Old Boys club.</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30488</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;I hadnâ€™t realized this whole revolving door thing was going on with him. Might have been nice to know at the time they awarded the Ares contract.&lt;/em&gt;

Then you weren&#039;t paying attention.  I was kind of amazed at the time that no one, at least no one in the press, including the space press, seemed to think it a conflict of interest, or an issue at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I hadnâ€™t realized this whole revolving door thing was going on with him. Might have been nice to know at the time they awarded the Ares contract.</em></p>
<p>Then you weren&#8217;t paying attention.  I was kind of amazed at the time that no one, at least no one in the press, including the space press, seemed to think it a conflict of interest, or an issue at all.</p>
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		<title>By: D. Messier</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30439</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Messier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 02:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/12/13/florida-today-sees-signs-of-trouble-in-ares-1/#comment-30439</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I figured this would happen pretty much from when Bush and O&#039;Keefe announced the whole VSE four years ago. Seemed awfully optimistic.

It&#039;s interesting what&#039;s being reported now about Scott Horowitz. I hadn&#039;t realized this whole revolving door thing was going on with him. Might have been nice to know at the time they awarded the Ares contract. Anyone know what if any role he played in the contract award, or did he recuse himself due to possible conflicts of interest?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I figured this would happen pretty much from when Bush and O&#8217;Keefe announced the whole VSE four years ago. Seemed awfully optimistic.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting what&#8217;s being reported now about Scott Horowitz. I hadn&#8217;t realized this whole revolving door thing was going on with him. Might have been nice to know at the time they awarded the Ares contract. Anyone know what if any role he played in the contract award, or did he recuse himself due to possible conflicts of interest?</p>
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