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	<title>Comments on: Delaying &#8220;the mission to Mars&#8221; and other policy clarifications</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: GM</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40468</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 14:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Why would Pete Worden be a good NASA administrator?  He hasn&#039;t led any projects.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would Pete Worden be a good NASA administrator?  He hasn&#8217;t led any projects.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Divine</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40255</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chuck Divine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40255</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m going to jump in here with a few comments that are probably more political and cultural than they are technical.  I just starting digging into the Direct proposals on a technical level.  I haven&#039;t had any dealings with the people who are working on them in that context.

First, I think I should issue a warning.  At present I am a moderate supporter of Hillary Clinton in this campaign.  Why?  I do consider her a more than acceptable candidate.  Lori Garver -- whom I have known for something like 20 years -- invited me (as well as others) to an issues and policy breakfast last June which I attended.  Since my particular focus in politics is workforce issues, management culture and items that flow from those concerns, I saw this as an opportunity to influence people who will be making decisions with regard to the future of space exploration and, possibly, other areas relating to technology.

Is Hillary Clinton genuinely interested in space and science and technology in general?  I think she is.  The number of votes she can win by appealing to the techie crowd is not all that big.  Her admission that she wanted to be an astronaut when she was young is quite believable.  She was born in the late 40s and grew up in an era where space in particular and technology in general had high positive recognition.  For a more in depth look at what life was like for people around Hillary&#039;s age, please see my blog posting &lt;a href=&quot;http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/2007/09/few-observations.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A Few Observations&lt;/a&gt;.  It&#039;s more about the differences between people born in the late 40s and those born after Apollo stopped, but I think people here will get the drift.  Even people as old as Obama will see things much differently than the Clintons and Griffins.  Clinton and Griffin came of age in a time when almost anything seemed possible.  That conviction started falling apart in the 1970s, when relative youngsters like Obama were coming of age.

Criticisms of all the candidates that they are failing to fully understand what is going on are much closer to the mark.  This is not surprising given the cultural biases present in the tech community.  To really &quot;sell space&quot; we need to listen and observe the larger world, not simply preach. For instance, the energy from space crowd (see my blog posting &lt;a href=&quot;http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/2007/08/energy-from-space-luncheon.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Energy from Space Luncheon&lt;/a&gt;) could well be onto something given the current concerns about carbon in the atmosphere as well as other energy concerns (e.g., security of depending on the volatile Middle East for oil).

Can the space community work with the next president, be it Clinton, Obama or McCain?  I think we can.  But it will require our doing more listening than talking.

I will also comment on Jim Muncy&#039;s excellent post at top of this discussion.  Another set of problems the Columbia Accident Investigation Board spent much time researching and discussing relates to the culture of NASA in the years preceding the accident.  These kinds of cultural issues affect too much of tech industry, not just aerospace.  My blog posting &lt;a href=&quot;http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/2008/02/aerospace-workforce-issues.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Aerospace Workforce Issues&lt;/a&gt; covers this area as well.  I&#039;ve also sent a copy of the proposals to people employed in the political arena.  

I will do a final plug for my blog, &lt;a href=&quot;http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Independent Broad Minded Centrist&lt;/a&gt;.  Yes, I spend a great deal of time discussing the sorts of cultural issues I&#039;ve touched on here.

I do hope my comments made some sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to jump in here with a few comments that are probably more political and cultural than they are technical.  I just starting digging into the Direct proposals on a technical level.  I haven&#8217;t had any dealings with the people who are working on them in that context.</p>
<p>First, I think I should issue a warning.  At present I am a moderate supporter of Hillary Clinton in this campaign.  Why?  I do consider her a more than acceptable candidate.  Lori Garver &#8212; whom I have known for something like 20 years &#8212; invited me (as well as others) to an issues and policy breakfast last June which I attended.  Since my particular focus in politics is workforce issues, management culture and items that flow from those concerns, I saw this as an opportunity to influence people who will be making decisions with regard to the future of space exploration and, possibly, other areas relating to technology.</p>
<p>Is Hillary Clinton genuinely interested in space and science and technology in general?  I think she is.  The number of votes she can win by appealing to the techie crowd is not all that big.  Her admission that she wanted to be an astronaut when she was young is quite believable.  She was born in the late 40s and grew up in an era where space in particular and technology in general had high positive recognition.  For a more in depth look at what life was like for people around Hillary&#8217;s age, please see my blog posting <a href="http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/2007/09/few-observations.html" rel="nofollow">A Few Observations</a>.  It&#8217;s more about the differences between people born in the late 40s and those born after Apollo stopped, but I think people here will get the drift.  Even people as old as Obama will see things much differently than the Clintons and Griffins.  Clinton and Griffin came of age in a time when almost anything seemed possible.  That conviction started falling apart in the 1970s, when relative youngsters like Obama were coming of age.</p>
<p>Criticisms of all the candidates that they are failing to fully understand what is going on are much closer to the mark.  This is not surprising given the cultural biases present in the tech community.  To really &#8220;sell space&#8221; we need to listen and observe the larger world, not simply preach. For instance, the energy from space crowd (see my blog posting <a href="http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/2007/08/energy-from-space-luncheon.html" rel="nofollow">Energy from Space Luncheon</a>) could well be onto something given the current concerns about carbon in the atmosphere as well as other energy concerns (e.g., security of depending on the volatile Middle East for oil).</p>
<p>Can the space community work with the next president, be it Clinton, Obama or McCain?  I think we can.  But it will require our doing more listening than talking.</p>
<p>I will also comment on Jim Muncy&#8217;s excellent post at top of this discussion.  Another set of problems the Columbia Accident Investigation Board spent much time researching and discussing relates to the culture of NASA in the years preceding the accident.  These kinds of cultural issues affect too much of tech industry, not just aerospace.  My blog posting <a href="http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/2008/02/aerospace-workforce-issues.html" rel="nofollow">Aerospace Workforce Issues</a> covers this area as well.  I&#8217;ve also sent a copy of the proposals to people employed in the political arena.  </p>
<p>I will do a final plug for my blog, <a href="http://independentbroadmindedcentrist.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Independent Broad Minded Centrist</a>.  Yes, I spend a great deal of time discussing the sorts of cultural issues I&#8217;ve touched on here.</p>
<p>I do hope my comments made some sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry in Baltimore</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40252</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry in Baltimore]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40252</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hillary could easily take 4 billion of fy2010 from Irag and keep VSE on track. Since we&#039;re spending 12 billion a month, and she proposes to start bringing some troops home 60 days after taking office. It could be done, as far as Oboma&#039;s education plan hug, how many times have I heard that one. All the education plans of politians are the same, a waist. R&amp;D money does more for education, since it is conducted at our colleges and universities than any other plan to date.

If you really want to increase education then give matching funds to the school boards directly not the state governments but the local governments. 

But that leaves too few hands in the pot so it won&#039;t get done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hillary could easily take 4 billion of fy2010 from Irag and keep VSE on track. Since we&#8217;re spending 12 billion a month, and she proposes to start bringing some troops home 60 days after taking office. It could be done, as far as Oboma&#8217;s education plan hug, how many times have I heard that one. All the education plans of politians are the same, a waist. R&amp;D money does more for education, since it is conducted at our colleges and universities than any other plan to date.</p>
<p>If you really want to increase education then give matching funds to the school boards directly not the state governments but the local governments. </p>
<p>But that leaves too few hands in the pot so it won&#8217;t get done.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Metschan</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40184</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Metschan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40184</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill wrote: â€œ(4) Some people think we need to leave LEO. (I assert that NONE of McCain, Clinton or Obama care very much about item (4) in the abstract.)â€


Bill I would suggest that they donâ€™t care much because it will not be until their second term in office that the decision to proceed beyond LEO will even come up for a decision at a practically level beyond low level studies and artwork.

What will happen under their watch is the transition of American based access to LEO from the Space Shuttle to something else.   Right now itâ€™s the engineering 101 implementation of the VSE policy that is being messed up.  In fact its politics 101 combined with engineering 101 combined with budget 101 that makes DIRECT so strong.  Any solution needs a good score in all three areas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill wrote: â€œ(4) Some people think we need to leave LEO. (I assert that NONE of McCain, Clinton or Obama care very much about item (4) in the abstract.)â€</p>
<p>Bill I would suggest that they donâ€™t care much because it will not be until their second term in office that the decision to proceed beyond LEO will even come up for a decision at a practically level beyond low level studies and artwork.</p>
<p>What will happen under their watch is the transition of American based access to LEO from the Space Shuttle to something else.   Right now itâ€™s the engineering 101 implementation of the VSE policy that is being messed up.  In fact its politics 101 combined with engineering 101 combined with budget 101 that makes DIRECT so strong.  Any solution needs a good score in all three areas.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon4</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40178</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon4]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40178</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Its interesting how Obama keeps flip-floping. First delaying Ares I, now accelerating it. Wonder where the coin will land? BTW Bill White, I told you so that Obama would not be good for the VSE. 

In any case it appears offical that VSE/Policy for Space Exploration is DOA in the Obama administration and the CEV becomes an expensive ISS taxi. Good bye COTS hopes. Wonder who will even want to be NASA Administrator if he is president? 

Clinton will probably ignore NASA once elected. Maybe after making noise about turning NASA over to Lori Graver as the first female administrator fi we are lucky. Then move on to other things. VSE will probably be quietly forgotten. However New Space would probably benefit given Lori&#039;s desire to be a space tourist.

Meanwhile it appears that McCain would make no changes, maybe even ask Griffin to hang around. He just might. Or you at least get a good replacement like Peter Worden. VSE would stay on course more or less. 

So decide which future you want for NASA?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its interesting how Obama keeps flip-floping. First delaying Ares I, now accelerating it. Wonder where the coin will land? BTW Bill White, I told you so that Obama would not be good for the VSE. </p>
<p>In any case it appears offical that VSE/Policy for Space Exploration is DOA in the Obama administration and the CEV becomes an expensive ISS taxi. Good bye COTS hopes. Wonder who will even want to be NASA Administrator if he is president? </p>
<p>Clinton will probably ignore NASA once elected. Maybe after making noise about turning NASA over to Lori Graver as the first female administrator fi we are lucky. Then move on to other things. VSE will probably be quietly forgotten. However New Space would probably benefit given Lori&#8217;s desire to be a space tourist.</p>
<p>Meanwhile it appears that McCain would make no changes, maybe even ask Griffin to hang around. He just might. Or you at least get a good replacement like Peter Worden. VSE would stay on course more or less. </p>
<p>So decide which future you want for NASA?</p>
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		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40177</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill, I recall hearing similar promises for &quot;the stick&quot; back when that was popular in this venue and I was one of the few arguing against it.  That said, I hope they are correct.

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, I recall hearing similar promises for &#8220;the stick&#8221; back when that was popular in this venue and I was one of the few arguing against it.  That said, I hope they are correct.</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
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		<title>By: Bill White</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40168</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill White]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40168</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Since I agree with Al in another thread that the economic winds will be increasingly against us, we may have lost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, here.&lt;/i&gt;

The Direct people are asserting that with a June 1, 2009 decision to go forward with the Direct 2.0 plan, a Jupiter 120-X could launch with crew in September 2012.

&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7868&amp;mid=250720#M250720&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gap? What gap?&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Since I agree with Al in another thread that the economic winds will be increasingly against us, we may have lost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, here.</i></p>
<p>The Direct people are asserting that with a June 1, 2009 decision to go forward with the Direct 2.0 plan, a Jupiter 120-X could launch with crew in September 2012.</p>
<p><a HREF="http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7868&amp;mid=250720#M250720" rel="nofollow">Gap? What gap?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40167</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40167</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alan:  &lt;i&gt;The candidates only seem to care about NASA in the sense that it funds jobs and that voters work for the space industryâ€¦ not because they see any value to space.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, of course.  Welcome to politics.  Members of Congress and the Senate (and even the President) think as far as their next term and of how much they can improve the economy (among other things) of the district they represent.  This is unlikely to change much as long as we remain a Republic.

It is our job as advocates to work within this reality to go forward.  That is why the VSE was such an important policy -- move forward with existing technology, achieve quick results &quot;on the ground&quot; in space, and stay within more-or-less existing budgets.  It is also why ESAS looks increasingly likely to be a disaster:  it abandoned existing technology for something new (if not exactly &quot;advanced&quot;); four years in it has achieved no results in space and is unlikely to for the foreseeable future; and it busted the (admittedly reduced) budget almost before it was out of the starting gate.

Since I agree with Al in another thread that the economic winds will be increasingly against us, we may have lost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan:  <i>The candidates only seem to care about NASA in the sense that it funds jobs and that voters work for the space industryâ€¦ not because they see any value to space.</i></p>
<p>Well, of course.  Welcome to politics.  Members of Congress and the Senate (and even the President) think as far as their next term and of how much they can improve the economy (among other things) of the district they represent.  This is unlikely to change much as long as we remain a Republic.</p>
<p>It is our job as advocates to work within this reality to go forward.  That is why the VSE was such an important policy &#8212; move forward with existing technology, achieve quick results &#8220;on the ground&#8221; in space, and stay within more-or-less existing budgets.  It is also why ESAS looks increasingly likely to be a disaster:  it abandoned existing technology for something new (if not exactly &#8220;advanced&#8221;); four years in it has achieved no results in space and is unlikely to for the foreseeable future; and it busted the (admittedly reduced) budget almost before it was out of the starting gate.</p>
<p>Since I agree with Al in another thread that the economic winds will be increasingly against us, we may have lost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, here.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40166</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Steinberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The candidates only seem to care about NASA in the sense that it funds jobs and that voters work for the space industry... not because they see any value to space.

Why is that you ask?  Because most people do not understand the value of the U.S. space program.  NASA needs to get a decent Public Relations campaign going to rally people behind it.  Then, and only then, will politicians do more than just pay NASA lip service.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The candidates only seem to care about NASA in the sense that it funds jobs and that voters work for the space industry&#8230; not because they see any value to space.</p>
<p>Why is that you ask?  Because most people do not understand the value of the U.S. space program.  NASA needs to get a decent Public Relations campaign going to rally people behind it.  Then, and only then, will politicians do more than just pay NASA lip service.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald F. Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40156</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Donald F. Robertson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/03/delaying-the-mission-to-mars-and-other-policy-clarifications/#comment-40156</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill:  &lt;i&gt;4) Some people think we need to leave LEO. (I assert that NONE of McCain, Clinton or Obama care very much about item (4) in the abstract.)&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not sure that&#039;s correct.  Ms. Clinton has talked about spaceflight in relatively ideological and inspirational terms, somthing the other two candidates have not done.  If this reflects her real thinking, than it is at least possible that she may care about Item 4.

-- Donald]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill:  <i>4) Some people think we need to leave LEO. (I assert that NONE of McCain, Clinton or Obama care very much about item (4) in the abstract.)</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that&#8217;s correct.  Ms. Clinton has talked about spaceflight in relatively ideological and inspirational terms, somthing the other two candidates have not done.  If this reflects her real thinking, than it is at least possible that she may care about Item 4.</p>
<p>&#8212; Donald</p>
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