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	<title>Comments on: Griffin&#8217;s hopes for today: more commercialization, less divisiveness</title>
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		<title>By: robert griffin american politics</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-50896</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[robert griffin american politics]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 05:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-50896</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] from a statement by robert ... Many of these have started with non-American services which ...http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiv...BalkinizationSeptember 11 and american Politics, Five Years Later ... ways it could have shaped the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] from a statement by robert &#8230; Many of these have started with non-American services which &#8230;<a href="http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiv" rel="nofollow">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiv</a>&#8230;BalkinizationSeptember 11 and american Politics, Five Years Later &#8230; ways it could have shaped the [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Al Fansome</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Al Fansome]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JIM HILLHOUSE:  &lt;i&gt;What has changed since Apollo, since the 1960â€™s, that makes public dissent by space â€œsupportersâ€ of NASAâ€™s execution the right thing to do?&lt;/i&gt;

Good question.

1)  SPACE SHUTTLE:  NASA sold this nation on a government-designed, government-owned, government-operated space truck that would be all things to all people.  It would fly 50 times per year, and would cost $10 million per flight (marginal cost).

WE THE PEOPLE:  Trusted the NASA leadership.

RESULT:  The Space Shuttle has never come close to achieving what was promised. 

2)  SPACE STATION:   NASA sold this nation on a government-designed, government-owned, government-operated space building that would do almost everything desired by a large list of people, it would be operational in a decade, and cost $8 Billion.

WE THE PEOPLE:  Trusted the NASA leadership.

RESULT:  The Space Station has never come close to achieving any of the specific goals that we were promised.

Do I need to tell you about the X-33?  The X-34?  The X-38?  The Space Launch Initiative?  The 2nd Generation Reusable Launch program?  The Orbital Spaceplane Program?  The Crew Transportation Vehicle?

So, when you ask what is changed since Apollo, my question to you is ...

Where have you been?  on Mars?

- Al]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JIM HILLHOUSE:  <i>What has changed since Apollo, since the 1960â€™s, that makes public dissent by space â€œsupportersâ€ of NASAâ€™s execution the right thing to do?</i></p>
<p>Good question.</p>
<p>1)  SPACE SHUTTLE:  NASA sold this nation on a government-designed, government-owned, government-operated space truck that would be all things to all people.  It would fly 50 times per year, and would cost $10 million per flight (marginal cost).</p>
<p>WE THE PEOPLE:  Trusted the NASA leadership.</p>
<p>RESULT:  The Space Shuttle has never come close to achieving what was promised. </p>
<p>2)  SPACE STATION:   NASA sold this nation on a government-designed, government-owned, government-operated space building that would do almost everything desired by a large list of people, it would be operational in a decade, and cost $8 Billion.</p>
<p>WE THE PEOPLE:  Trusted the NASA leadership.</p>
<p>RESULT:  The Space Station has never come close to achieving any of the specific goals that we were promised.</p>
<p>Do I need to tell you about the X-33?  The X-34?  The X-38?  The Space Launch Initiative?  The 2nd Generation Reusable Launch program?  The Orbital Spaceplane Program?  The Crew Transportation Vehicle?</p>
<p>So, when you ask what is changed since Apollo, my question to you is &#8230;</p>
<p>Where have you been?  on Mars?</p>
<p>&#8211; Al</p>
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		<title>By: D. Messier</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41324</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Messier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I dunno, Jim. Why have free speech at all? It&#039;s clearly not working, so we should (what is that phrase some space expert likes to use....sit down and shut up?) and just go along mindlessly with whatever the current NASA administrator and the occupant of the White House want to do, no matter how lame-brained it might be.

I can&#039;t believe I have to even point out how bad an idea this is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno, Jim. Why have free speech at all? It&#8217;s clearly not working, so we should (what is that phrase some space expert likes to use&#8230;.sit down and shut up?) and just go along mindlessly with whatever the current NASA administrator and the occupant of the White House want to do, no matter how lame-brained it might be.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t believe I have to even point out how bad an idea this is.</p>
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		<title>By: AmericaSpace &#187; You go, Mike!</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41267</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AmericaSpace &#187; You go, Mike!]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] is yet another post, this one at SpacePolitics.com, referencing NASA Administrator Mike Griffin&#8217;s comments at the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] is yet another post, this one at SpacePolitics.com, referencing NASA Administrator Mike Griffin&#8217;s comments at the [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Hillhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41171</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Hillhouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How does publicly bashing NASA help? Please point out a time when anyone publicly criticizing NASA has made a NASA program better? And are pro-space NASA critics really naive enough believe that the Obama&#039;s and the others in Congress and the White House who want manned space cut back are not using the arguments made by those who think NASA is &quot;dumb&quot; or &quot;wrong&quot; to go to their collegues and try to make the case that...well, perhaps it&#039;s a good idea to withhold funding for (take your pick: Ares I, Ares V, Constellation) until NASA has figured out how to do it. Isn&#039;t that the justification that Obama is now using to killed manned space? NASA doesn&#039;t inspire, doesn&#039;t know what it&#039;s doing, so let&#039;s shift its money to something else goes Obama&#039;s argument.

Think Apollo was a well run program? In some ways yes. But by 1964, North American had so screwed up the Apollo capsule contract that there were concerns within the aero community, concerns that pointedly were not voiced publicly--people understood that such criticism would have empowered NASA&#039;s critics to cancel funding for Apollo--that NASA sent in Joe Shea to fix things (Apollo: The Race To The Moon [172]), which he almost did. And even after the fire, NASA supporters knew that they had to stand behind the program or loose it. 

What has changed since Apollo, since the 1960&#039;s, that makes public dissent by space &quot;supporters&quot; of NASA&#039;s execution the right thing to do?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does publicly bashing NASA help? Please point out a time when anyone publicly criticizing NASA has made a NASA program better? And are pro-space NASA critics really naive enough believe that the Obama&#8217;s and the others in Congress and the White House who want manned space cut back are not using the arguments made by those who think NASA is &#8220;dumb&#8221; or &#8220;wrong&#8221; to go to their collegues and try to make the case that&#8230;well, perhaps it&#8217;s a good idea to withhold funding for (take your pick: Ares I, Ares V, Constellation) until NASA has figured out how to do it. Isn&#8217;t that the justification that Obama is now using to killed manned space? NASA doesn&#8217;t inspire, doesn&#8217;t know what it&#8217;s doing, so let&#8217;s shift its money to something else goes Obama&#8217;s argument.</p>
<p>Think Apollo was a well run program? In some ways yes. But by 1964, North American had so screwed up the Apollo capsule contract that there were concerns within the aero community, concerns that pointedly were not voiced publicly&#8211;people understood that such criticism would have empowered NASA&#8217;s critics to cancel funding for Apollo&#8211;that NASA sent in Joe Shea to fix things (Apollo: The Race To The Moon [172]), which he almost did. And even after the fire, NASA supporters knew that they had to stand behind the program or loose it. </p>
<p>What has changed since Apollo, since the 1960&#8217;s, that makes public dissent by space &#8220;supporters&#8221; of NASA&#8217;s execution the right thing to do?</p>
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		<title>By: canttellya</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41103</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[canttellya]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The acorn don&#039;t fall far from the tree...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The acorn don&#8217;t fall far from the tree&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: D. Messier</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D. Messier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-41102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not a big fan of Griffin&#039;s &quot;with us or against us&quot; rhetoric, otherwise known as &quot;sit down and shut up (and do what I say)&quot;). But, that&#039;s par for the course for the Bush government for the last seven years, one month and twenty days). Feel free to dispute this is you wish, but there are many, many examples. So, be ready to argue your case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a big fan of Griffin&#8217;s &#8220;with us or against us&#8221; rhetoric, otherwise known as &#8220;sit down and shut up (and do what I say)&#8221;). But, that&#8217;s par for the course for the Bush government for the last seven years, one month and twenty days). Feel free to dispute this is you wish, but there are many, many examples. So, be ready to argue your case.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-40673</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-40673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff: &quot;One of them is a desire for more unity within the space community.&quot;

One reason there is so little unity at the moment among the NASA human spaceflight, space science, and entrepreneurial space interests is the current monolithic NASA human space transportation development program is too big.  It crowds out NASA funding that might have gone to one of the other interests, and does little to help those other interests until and unless it achieves its goals of a lunar base in 2020, and then transforms that effort to one that fosters science and commerce.

It&#039;s a bit of a stretch.

As Administrator Griffin mentioned, some changes have recently been made that help address this problem.  The lunar robotic science program now includes GRAIL, and possibly a small orbiter and 2 small landers.  While this is offset by cutbacks in other robotic science areas, and doesn&#039;t make up for the funding taken from robotic science for ISS/Shuttle/Constellation, it does at least begin a sustained lunar science program beyond LRO and instruments on foreign missions, which hopefully will result in common interests and mutual support in the human and science programs.  Hopefully the lunar robotics line continues.

Griffin also mentioned some of the commercial developments, like the Zero-G Corp business, the suborbital human commercial spaceflight RFIs from the NASA science area, and the Orbital COTS award.  These are also promising steps that tend to combine the interests of the science, NASA human spaceflight, and commercial sectors.  Hopefully the trend continues. 

My usual reaction is that we need to replace ESAS with something more modest, quickly done, and cheaper so we can address the science and commerce interests.  However, I think I&#039;d be satisified enough to not oppose ESAS - close enough to the unity Dr. Griffin wants - if something like the following extensions of the trends Dr. Griffin described happened:

- suborbital human spaceflight RFIs taken to the next step, experiments to fly repeatedly on commercial suborbital vehicles in development, RFIs extended beyond NASA SMD to the rest of NASA (+ equivalents at NOAA, DOD, etc), and RFIs extended to uncrewed commercial suborbital vehicles as appropriate

- lunar robotic science program extended to include ISRU demos, small demos of science missions that can be considerably improved by lunar astronauts, and incentives for Google Lunar X PRIZE missions to demonstrate technology or do science or experiments useful to the NASA lunar program

- COTS cargo business deals for actual ISS support started (i.e. letting the vendors - SpaceX, Orbital, or other - know they&#039;ll get at least X missions for Y dollars if they achieve the ISS goals)

- COTS crew phase started (possibly in cooperation with Bigelow for technical compatibility, greater common incentives to transportation developers, etc)

- new Centennial Challenges prizes funded, and similar space-related efforts in DoD (e.g.: DARPA), NOAA, and NSF

Obviously NASA can only do so much - it can&#039;t use commercial services that don&#039;t exist yet, and can&#039;t make other agencies use commercial space businesses.  However, it can do a lot to encourage such services to be made, and to be sustained and improved once developed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff: &#8220;One of them is a desire for more unity within the space community.&#8221;</p>
<p>One reason there is so little unity at the moment among the NASA human spaceflight, space science, and entrepreneurial space interests is the current monolithic NASA human space transportation development program is too big.  It crowds out NASA funding that might have gone to one of the other interests, and does little to help those other interests until and unless it achieves its goals of a lunar base in 2020, and then transforms that effort to one that fosters science and commerce.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a bit of a stretch.</p>
<p>As Administrator Griffin mentioned, some changes have recently been made that help address this problem.  The lunar robotic science program now includes GRAIL, and possibly a small orbiter and 2 small landers.  While this is offset by cutbacks in other robotic science areas, and doesn&#8217;t make up for the funding taken from robotic science for ISS/Shuttle/Constellation, it does at least begin a sustained lunar science program beyond LRO and instruments on foreign missions, which hopefully will result in common interests and mutual support in the human and science programs.  Hopefully the lunar robotics line continues.</p>
<p>Griffin also mentioned some of the commercial developments, like the Zero-G Corp business, the suborbital human commercial spaceflight RFIs from the NASA science area, and the Orbital COTS award.  These are also promising steps that tend to combine the interests of the science, NASA human spaceflight, and commercial sectors.  Hopefully the trend continues. </p>
<p>My usual reaction is that we need to replace ESAS with something more modest, quickly done, and cheaper so we can address the science and commerce interests.  However, I think I&#8217;d be satisified enough to not oppose ESAS &#8211; close enough to the unity Dr. Griffin wants &#8211; if something like the following extensions of the trends Dr. Griffin described happened:</p>
<p>&#8211; suborbital human spaceflight RFIs taken to the next step, experiments to fly repeatedly on commercial suborbital vehicles in development, RFIs extended beyond NASA SMD to the rest of NASA (+ equivalents at NOAA, DOD, etc), and RFIs extended to uncrewed commercial suborbital vehicles as appropriate</p>
<p>&#8211; lunar robotic science program extended to include ISRU demos, small demos of science missions that can be considerably improved by lunar astronauts, and incentives for Google Lunar X PRIZE missions to demonstrate technology or do science or experiments useful to the NASA lunar program</p>
<p>&#8211; COTS cargo business deals for actual ISS support started (i.e. letting the vendors &#8211; SpaceX, Orbital, or other &#8211; know they&#8217;ll get at least X missions for Y dollars if they achieve the ISS goals)</p>
<p>&#8211; COTS crew phase started (possibly in cooperation with Bigelow for technical compatibility, greater common incentives to transportation developers, etc)</p>
<p>&#8211; new Centennial Challenges prizes funded, and similar space-related efforts in DoD (e.g.: DARPA), NOAA, and NSF</p>
<p>Obviously NASA can only do so much &#8211; it can&#8217;t use commercial services that don&#8217;t exist yet, and can&#8217;t make other agencies use commercial space businesses.  However, it can do a lot to encourage such services to be made, and to be sustained and improved once developed.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-40606</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I agree that the commercialization of space is already leading to many new technologies; however, cautionary considerations regarding abuses should not be made light of. 

Historically, abuses that are levied against governmental agencies can be traced to  connections within the private sector.  Precious resources, such as the International Space Station, should be globally treasured, fully utilized, yet protected from the potential for destruction from a nefarious intent or a &quot;rushed to market&quot; error in use of new technology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the commercialization of space is already leading to many new technologies; however, cautionary considerations regarding abuses should not be made light of. </p>
<p>Historically, abuses that are levied against governmental agencies can be traced to  connections within the private sector.  Precious resources, such as the International Space Station, should be globally treasured, fully utilized, yet protected from the potential for destruction from a nefarious intent or a &#8220;rushed to market&#8221; error in use of new technology.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kavanagh</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-40603</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Kavanagh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/2008/03/06/griffins-hopes-for-today-more-commercialization-less-divisiveness/#comment-40603</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NASA&#039;s institutional risk aversion extends to full committal to COTS. Awesome to see Congress cognizant of the commercial space alternative to Soyuz.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NASA&#8217;s institutional risk aversion extends to full committal to COTS. Awesome to see Congress cognizant of the commercial space alternative to Soyuz.</p>
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