Even assuming that this statement is true (I would contend that you can’t support it) that doesn’t mean that it disappeared because it “gave up on exploration.”

I wish that space advocates would come up with some arguments that make sense.

You (no doubt wilfully) miss the point. Cooking a meal — a single, known location, with known objects, known interfaces between tools and objects, limited and known requirements for motion, et cetera, is fantastically simple compared to doing any detailed geology — finding a deeply buried sample of Earth’s early contenents, say — on the moon. If we can’t do the former, we certainly cannot do the latter, however much people like you may wish and dream and pretend otherwise.

No we have not. Period.

Dead wrong. In only three days, Apollo-17 astronauts did a detailed geologic survey of a large section of an entire alpin valley. The outpost was extended and detailed enough, especially for a first-generation system. Establishing a longer stay time with more mobile suits and equipment will be far, far easier than developing automated survey geology. We know how, in detail, to do the former; the latter is far beyond our reach.

— Donald

“This is wrong. It was identified by an astronaut on site who instantly recognized it as unusual and important.”

We weren’t talking about “unusual and important”. We were talking about oxygen rich. No obvious reason why a tele-geologist might not have seen the same unusual and important things. And the astronauts themselves did not assay for oxygen.

“To put it another way, after all these years and billions of dollars, where is the set of telerobtic hands that can cook a meal for me?”

I guess we need to put meal cooking on the technology development roadmap for NASA. But maybe there are higher priorities …

“but we haven’t seen an outpost yet either, nor the kind of extended EVA times that these ambitious tasks would need”

“Haven’t we?”

No we have not. Period.

“We have perfectly good people and tools for the job, that already exist.”

Yep, and the nation would kinda like them to remain perfectly good. As for robots, we’re willing to make sacrifices in the name of science.

“All we have to do is get them there. Once you’ve paid for the up-front infrastructure, it doesn’t even cost that much.”

Whaaaat? That’s a screamer.

Let’s move on.

If you will begin to see beyond your nose – you may realize this.
Also, for every dollar spent on NASA – less than 1% of the budget, 8 returns to the market. Like your GPS Navigation? Stand-up MRI? Like the Television and signals you are receiving? Even if it’s not directly related, most if not all technology can be attributed to NASA? How did we get this global warming debate? NASA observed ice cap melting.

NASA could do many more wonderful things if given the chance. For 2 months we spend in Iraq – we could more than fund NASA – for a good cause…did you ever consider this?

Before we talk about NASA – the DOD, during the same fiscal year NASA received 17B – the DOD received almost 600B…..

Tell me who you’d rather have spending your money – scientists and engineers discovering new frontiers and developing technologies to help our daily lives – or death by desert in Iraq?

Your call

This is wrong. It was identified by an astronaut on site who instantly recognized it as unusual and important.

We have not seen a tool like this yet

Exactly. I am not confusing telerobotics with automation. The former is, in many ways, far harder than the latter, at least to a certain point. The thing that people who think robots (in the broad sense) will “soon” be able to do much that humans can do (funny how “soon” never seems to actually arrive) is that it is the smooth integration between our brains and bodies that makes us unique, at least as far as field work is concerned. In spite of decades of work and billions of dollars, we have made next to no progress in duplicating the kinds of tasks that humans can do without even thinking, that are important to field work, with machines. (An unintentionally funny comment in AvWeek last week was that astronauts had to use an improvised crowbar to pry the arms for the Canadian teleoperated robot out of its packing case, and that the robot will be useless for the key task on the Space Station — fixing the solar array joint.) To put it another way, after all these years and billions of dollars, where is the set of telerobtic hands that can cook a meal for me? The current hands can barely fill a glass of water, and then it is a difficult task that often fails.

but we haven’t seen an outpost yet either, nor the kind of extended EVA times that these ambitious tasks would need

Haven’t we? Go back and read what Apollos-15 – 17 actually achieved, and recall that this was first generation equipment and practice. Robotics is up to n generations, and cannot compete.

Seems to me it’s a theory that is well worth proving.

On or off Earth, why? We have perfectly good people and tools for the job, that already exist. All we have to do is get them there. Once you’ve paid for the up-front infrastructure, it doesn’t even cost that much. (Ironically, the LRO alone costs half the estimated incremental cost of sending an ESAS flight to the moon, which is itself outrageously more expensive than it needs to be.) How much money are you going to waste failing to automate this stuff before you do it the easy way?

“transmitting the human spirit” as Noel Hinners just told House Space.

Actually, this is an important part — in the bigger picture, probably the most important part. We, as a culture and a species, need people like Ansel Adams to understand the Solar System, and as you imply yourself, that is something that cannot be automated anytime soon, even in theory.
Here’s a prediction that I am willing to bet money on: If it’s done in the lifetimes of anyone reading these words, it will prove far easier and cheaper to send geologists to Earth’s moon than it will be to successfully automate the tasks they would do, especially with comparable efficiency.

— Donald

This misses the point.

If we have hands, eyes, legs (and or wheels) and local analysis equipment that a sophisticated agent could access, all with reasonably high bandwidth control of brains back on Earth, we don’t necessarily need those brains onsite in a can. We have not seen a tool like this yet, but we haven’t seen an outpost yet either, nor the kind of extended EVA times that these ambitious tasks would need. Such telepresence tools are actually quite realizable, and in many respects already exist. There is strong commercial and defense push to develop this technology further. In the Apollo era, we couldn’t do this kind of thing. Not even close. We can now.

I suspect you’re confusing autonomous robotics with teleoperated robotics. Teleoperation is more challenging on Mars where the latency is substantial, but it’s easy on the Moon.

“* Locate unsuspected scientific or exploitable resources, like the oxygen-rich glass beads found under a lava flow by Apollo-17.”

Nope. There is nothing about finding “unsuspected” stuff that necessarily requires boots on the ground. C’mon. That comment is a hail-Mary pass. It certainly might help, however, to have the ability to do sample return, which is how the oxygen-rich glass was actually identified as such from Apollo 17.

This in no way discounts the skill or value of field geologists. Those field geologists are needed, but in many respects their lunar presence can be virtual.

The lunar science community has identified precisely these (and other) high priority science needs for lunar research, and all of them are understood to be credibly achievable without humans. This isn’t a matter of what humans can do, it’s a matter of what you need humans to do. Unless bravery and heroes are what this is about, or “transmitting the human spirit” as Noel Hinners just told House Space. Robots can’t give you that. Now, showing courage is perhaps justified from the perspective of national pride, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

“Or anything else requiring difficult field or survey work.”

So that’s what it comes down to, eh? If it’s difficult, then one necessarily needs people on site? Hmmm. In many respects, just having people on site makes everything difficult.

Again, we need to go there robotically, and find the stuff that justifies human presence. Sure, it’s a “theory” that a robot could do all this. Seems to me it’s a theory that is well worth proving.

No, Scott Horowitz is a former astronaut with a vested interest in solid rocket technology and ATK Thiokol. No proper rocket scientist in their right mind would promote something like Ares 1.

I can:

* Precisely date and map detailed volcanic layoring. Robots may conceivably be able to do this, but none have yet, and certainly not with particular scientific efficiency. Note that the Martian rovers, in spite of their extreme success, and particularly Spirit, have done remarkably little widespread stratigraphy, and no dating.

* Precisely date and map detailed debris apron layoring over wide areas to refine the crater counts used to date the rest of the Solar System.

* Locate and dig up pieces of Earth’s crust that pre-date anything that survives here, possibly providing hard data on the formation of life on Earth. Likewise, locate other debris from other planets, or even from outside of the Solar System, that probably were trapped and preserved after impacting during the moon’s lifetime as an essentially static trap. Such objects will be excruciatingly rare, and hard to find, but finding even one could revolutionize many fields of science. Robots will not be able to achieve the scientific efficiency required to do this in the foreseeable future.

* Locate unsuspected scientific or exploitable resources, like the oxygen-rich glass beads found under a lava flow by Apollo-17.

Or anything else requiring difficult field or survey work. A more detailed discussion is here,

http://www.donaldfrobertson.com/science_just.html

The theory that robots can do these tasks at all, let alone with the kind of efficiency that would answer our questions in our lifetimes, remains just that.

– Donald