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	<title>Comments on: Cautions about Bolden and Garver</title>
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		<title>By: Space Politics Cautions about Bolden and Garver &#124; Joint Pain Relief</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-248507</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Space Politics Cautions about Bolden and Garver &#124; Joint Pain Relief]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] Space Politics Cautions about Bolden and Garver   Posted by root 10 minutes ago (http://www.spacepolitics.com)        Of why they are a far more essential publication than those who blindly joint the chorus by nasa own estimates the costs of constellation through first human lunar landing your comment name required e mail required not published powered by wordpress and f        Discuss&#160;  &#124;&#160; Bury &#124;&#160;    News &#124; Space Politics Cautions about Bolden and Garver [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Space Politics Cautions about Bolden and Garver   Posted by root 10 minutes ago (<a href="http://www.spacepolitics.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.spacepolitics.com</a>)        Of why they are a far more essential publication than those who blindly joint the chorus by nasa own estimates the costs of constellation through first human lunar landing your comment name required e mail required not published powered by wordpress and f        Discuss&nbsp;  |&nbsp; Bury |&nbsp;    News | Space Politics Cautions about Bolden and Garver [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-247197</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-247197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I should add that as Johnson made the decision to end the Apollo program, George Bush did so for the Shuttle program.  The fact that the program endured beyond his presidency, to be actually shut down by his successor, doesn&#039;t change that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that as Johnson made the decision to end the Apollo program, George Bush did so for the Shuttle program.  The fact that the program endured beyond his presidency, to be actually shut down by his successor, doesn&#8217;t change that.</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-247196</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-247196</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I pointed to the Wasser link, I wasn&#039;t necessarily agreeing with everything that Alan wrote.  I agree that the OST did not kill Apollo (though it was bad for other reasons).  Vietnam and The Great Society did.  Apollo was too expensive a system in too constrained a federal budget environment.  And Constellation is very likely to share its fate, for exactly the same reasons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I pointed to the Wasser link, I wasn&#8217;t necessarily agreeing with everything that Alan wrote.  I agree that the OST did not kill Apollo (though it was bad for other reasons).  Vietnam and The Great Society did.  Apollo was too expensive a system in too constrained a federal budget environment.  And Constellation is very likely to share its fate, for exactly the same reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Al Fansome</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-247187</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Al Fansome]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-247187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rand,

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think you are overstating it.

Example:

&lt;i&gt;As I said, Nixonâ€™s sins were many, including on the space program. What was in dispute was who ended the Apollo program. It was Lyndon Johnson.&lt;/i&gt;

I have to disagree with you on this, and agree with Gary.  Language is important.

Lyndon Johnson did not &quot;end&quot; the Apollo program.  Yes, Lyndon Johnson bowed to political and budgetary realities, and started the &quot;beginning of the end&quot; of the Apollo program (which is not the same as &quot;ended&quot;).  The &quot;end&quot; came during the Nixon administration (with the approval and support of a Democratic Congress).  

While you (and Alan Wasser) are correct that the OST stopped a race for sovereignty in space, and potential resources, since sovereignty was never the express purpose of Apollo, the OST is not the root &quot;cause&quot; for the end of the Apollo.  Correlation does not equal causation.

I agree that if the OST had never been signed, that Apollo conceivably could have continued.

But the root cause for the end of Apollo is that it had achieved its &quot;real&quot; goals (as an instrument of soft power in the cold war), our nation had a growing budget deficit, AND the perceived value of space resources (by our national leaders) was low enough (and the cost of how NASA conducts its operations high enough) that no elected leader could justify (with a straight face) the large federal investment required to &quot;establish sovereignty and acquire the resources&quot;.

The key problem was that our &quot;space effort&quot; was not designed, from the bottom up, to be &quot;affordable&quot;.  It was rational to shut down an &quot;unaffordable program&quot; after it had achieve its national security goals.

It is irrational to assert that you can take an &quot;unaffordable&quot; system, and a set of values and processes that are not designed to be &quot;affordable&quot;, and just redirect those values and processes to cost-effectively utilizing space resources.  Anybody doing the economic analysis at the time (in the mid 60s) would realize that the numbers did not add up.

I assert that if it had been economically rational to &quot;establish sovereignty&quot; using the then existing (or predictable) technology, that the OST would not have been signed in its current form.

Thus, Wasser&#039;s line of argument is incorrect.

On the subject of &quot;sins&quot;, Nixon tasking a government agency with building a &quot;low-cost reusable space transportation system&quot; that was supposed to be a &quot;space truck&quot;, is at the top of my list.

FWIW,

- Al]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rand,</p>
<p>I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think you are overstating it.</p>
<p>Example:</p>
<p><i>As I said, Nixonâ€™s sins were many, including on the space program. What was in dispute was who ended the Apollo program. It was Lyndon Johnson.</i></p>
<p>I have to disagree with you on this, and agree with Gary.  Language is important.</p>
<p>Lyndon Johnson did not &#8220;end&#8221; the Apollo program.  Yes, Lyndon Johnson bowed to political and budgetary realities, and started the &#8220;beginning of the end&#8221; of the Apollo program (which is not the same as &#8220;ended&#8221;).  The &#8220;end&#8221; came during the Nixon administration (with the approval and support of a Democratic Congress).  </p>
<p>While you (and Alan Wasser) are correct that the OST stopped a race for sovereignty in space, and potential resources, since sovereignty was never the express purpose of Apollo, the OST is not the root &#8220;cause&#8221; for the end of the Apollo.  Correlation does not equal causation.</p>
<p>I agree that if the OST had never been signed, that Apollo conceivably could have continued.</p>
<p>But the root cause for the end of Apollo is that it had achieved its &#8220;real&#8221; goals (as an instrument of soft power in the cold war), our nation had a growing budget deficit, AND the perceived value of space resources (by our national leaders) was low enough (and the cost of how NASA conducts its operations high enough) that no elected leader could justify (with a straight face) the large federal investment required to &#8220;establish sovereignty and acquire the resources&#8221;.</p>
<p>The key problem was that our &#8220;space effort&#8221; was not designed, from the bottom up, to be &#8220;affordable&#8221;.  It was rational to shut down an &#8220;unaffordable program&#8221; after it had achieve its national security goals.</p>
<p>It is irrational to assert that you can take an &#8220;unaffordable&#8221; system, and a set of values and processes that are not designed to be &#8220;affordable&#8221;, and just redirect those values and processes to cost-effectively utilizing space resources.  Anybody doing the economic analysis at the time (in the mid 60s) would realize that the numbers did not add up.</p>
<p>I assert that if it had been economically rational to &#8220;establish sovereignty&#8221; using the then existing (or predictable) technology, that the OST would not have been signed in its current form.</p>
<p>Thus, Wasser&#8217;s line of argument is incorrect.</p>
<p>On the subject of &#8220;sins&#8221;, Nixon tasking a government agency with building a &#8220;low-cost reusable space transportation system&#8221; that was supposed to be a &#8220;space truck&#8221;, is at the top of my list.</p>
<p>FWIW,</p>
<p>&#8211; Al</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-246111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 23:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-246111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Public&#039;s eventual lack of interest in any of those eras initiated their respective ends. Or there would have been an outcry. But I can&#039;t hear it, can you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Public&#8217;s eventual lack of interest in any of those eras initiated their respective ends. Or there would have been an outcry. But I can&#8217;t hear it, can you?</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-246087</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 22:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-246087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bush initiated the end of the Shuttle era.  Obama will complete it.  We are almost in the post-Shuttle era.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bush initiated the end of the Shuttle era.  Obama will complete it.  We are almost in the post-Shuttle era.</p>
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		<title>By: richardb</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-245993</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richardb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-245993</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Johnson ended the Apollo program. Nixon ended the post-Apollo program. And started the Shuttle program.&quot;  

So who ended the Shuttle era?  Bush or Obama?  Have we entered a post-
Shuttle era?  How about post-Partisan era?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Johnson ended the Apollo program. Nixon ended the post-Apollo program. And started the Shuttle program.&#8221;  </p>
<p>So who ended the Shuttle era?  Bush or Obama?  Have we entered a post-<br />
Shuttle era?  How about post-Partisan era?</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-245682</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 21:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-245682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;The real gist of the Outer Space Treaty was that it formally recognized the right to operate military satellites in space since no nation could claim boundary rigths in space. Such overflights had been informally recognized with the launch of the Sputnik.&lt;/em&gt;

No, the real &quot;gist&quot; of the OST was that it shut down a race for resources and sovereignty in space (there was concern among State Department bureaucrats over a costly space race to claim extraterrestrial property, as occurred half a millennium before in the New World --they wanted to shut it down before it got really expensive).  It worked all too well, as Wasser points out.  The recognition of overflight rights was clearly a benefit, and one of the reasons that many argue not to upset that apple cart, but as you note, that became effectively moot after Sputnik (one of the reasons that the Eisenhower administration was complacent, and didn&#039;t realize the potential public outcry and blowback).

&lt;em&gt;Now, you appear to be backing away from your comment. Hmmmâ€¦&lt;/em&gt;

No, I&#039;m not.  I back away from nothing.  

Johnson ended the Apollo program.  Nixon ended the post-Apollo program.  And started the Shuttle program.

Whether that&#039;s a sin or a mitzvah is for history to judge.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The real gist of the Outer Space Treaty was that it formally recognized the right to operate military satellites in space since no nation could claim boundary rigths in space. Such overflights had been informally recognized with the launch of the Sputnik.</em></p>
<p>No, the real &#8220;gist&#8221; of the OST was that it shut down a race for resources and sovereignty in space (there was concern among State Department bureaucrats over a costly space race to claim extraterrestrial property, as occurred half a millennium before in the New World &#8211;they wanted to shut it down before it got really expensive).  It worked all too well, as Wasser points out.  The recognition of overflight rights was clearly a benefit, and one of the reasons that many argue not to upset that apple cart, but as you note, that became effectively moot after Sputnik (one of the reasons that the Eisenhower administration was complacent, and didn&#8217;t realize the potential public outcry and blowback).</p>
<p><em>Now, you appear to be backing away from your comment. Hmmmâ€¦</em></p>
<p>No, I&#8217;m not.  I back away from nothing.  </p>
<p>Johnson ended the Apollo program.  Nixon ended the post-Apollo program.  And started the Shuttle program.</p>
<p>Whether that&#8217;s a sin or a mitzvah is for history to judge.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Miles</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-245677</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary Miles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 21:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-245677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Rand Simberg

My apologies Rand I got fixated on typing &#039;David&#039; for some reason even though I knew his name was Alan Wasser.  And yes I did read his column.  And I found several claims he makes rather wanting. For instance in this excerpt:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Because of that lack of intelligence, the administration had to assume that, if it cut space spending to pay for Vietnam, it might well lose the Space Race. The question became how to keep the other side from using that victory to gain control of space. So Johnson offered the Soviets a deal for mutual renunciation of the prizes to be won: no nuclear weapons in space, and neither country claims ownership of the Moon, regardless of which nation gets there first. As the New York Times pointed out on May 8th, â€œthe treaty sought by the United States would be similar to the one pertaining to Antarcticaâ€ which had effectively stopped all development there.

LBJ must have been pleasantly surprised when the Soviets accepted, since he didnâ€™t realize they too were now worried about the consequences of losing the race to the Moon. LBJ had no idea of the significance of the death of Korolevâ€”if, indeed heâ€™d ever heard the nameâ€”but Khrushchev certainly understood, and unlike the US, the USSR could easily keep tabs on how their opposition was doing so they knew the US was doing better than they were.

The result was the â€œTreaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodiesâ€ (referred to simply as the Outer Space Treaty), negotiated directly with the Kremlin by Johnsonâ€™s personal representative, former Supreme Court Justice and UN Ambassador Arthur Goldberg, and only later shown to the UN in its final form to be ratified by other nations.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is a rather strange interpretation.  In the 1960s, the US was engaged in developing and operating a spy satellite program the first of which was Keyhole utilizing Corona and Zenit satellites.  The real gist of the Outer Space Treaty was that it formally recognized the right to operate military satellites in space since no nation could claim boundary rigths in space.  Such overflights had been informally recognized with the launch of the Sputnik.  Whether that was a blunder on the part of the Soviet Union is debatable.  Thus, of course, Johnson was pleasantly surprised that the Soviet Union would be agreeable to making the orbiting spy satellites legal.  It gave the US a hell of advantage in monitoring Soviet Union&#039;s military capabilities.  As I have mentioned before, the Apollo 1 accident and the Vietnam War had far greater impact on the space program than this treaty did.

&lt;em&gt;Obama is shaping up to be a weak advocate of Nasa, just as Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter and Nixon before him.

And Johnson (who ended the Apollo program) before him.&lt;/em&gt;

This was your original post that I was responding to Rand.  Now, you appear to be backing away from your comment. Hmmm...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rand Simberg</p>
<p>My apologies Rand I got fixated on typing &#8216;David&#8217; for some reason even though I knew his name was Alan Wasser.  And yes I did read his column.  And I found several claims he makes rather wanting. For instance in this excerpt:</p>
<blockquote><p>Because of that lack of intelligence, the administration had to assume that, if it cut space spending to pay for Vietnam, it might well lose the Space Race. The question became how to keep the other side from using that victory to gain control of space. So Johnson offered the Soviets a deal for mutual renunciation of the prizes to be won: no nuclear weapons in space, and neither country claims ownership of the Moon, regardless of which nation gets there first. As the New York Times pointed out on May 8th, â€œthe treaty sought by the United States would be similar to the one pertaining to Antarcticaâ€ which had effectively stopped all development there.</p>
<p>LBJ must have been pleasantly surprised when the Soviets accepted, since he didnâ€™t realize they too were now worried about the consequences of losing the race to the Moon. LBJ had no idea of the significance of the death of Korolevâ€”if, indeed heâ€™d ever heard the nameâ€”but Khrushchev certainly understood, and unlike the US, the USSR could easily keep tabs on how their opposition was doing so they knew the US was doing better than they were.</p>
<p>The result was the â€œTreaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodiesâ€ (referred to simply as the Outer Space Treaty), negotiated directly with the Kremlin by Johnsonâ€™s personal representative, former Supreme Court Justice and UN Ambassador Arthur Goldberg, and only later shown to the UN in its final form to be ratified by other nations.
</p></blockquote>
<p>This is a rather strange interpretation.  In the 1960s, the US was engaged in developing and operating a spy satellite program the first of which was Keyhole utilizing Corona and Zenit satellites.  The real gist of the Outer Space Treaty was that it formally recognized the right to operate military satellites in space since no nation could claim boundary rigths in space.  Such overflights had been informally recognized with the launch of the Sputnik.  Whether that was a blunder on the part of the Soviet Union is debatable.  Thus, of course, Johnson was pleasantly surprised that the Soviet Union would be agreeable to making the orbiting spy satellites legal.  It gave the US a hell of advantage in monitoring Soviet Union&#8217;s military capabilities.  As I have mentioned before, the Apollo 1 accident and the Vietnam War had far greater impact on the space program than this treaty did.</p>
<p><em>Obama is shaping up to be a weak advocate of Nasa, just as Bush II, Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter and Nixon before him.</p>
<p>And Johnson (who ended the Apollo program) before him.</em></p>
<p>This was your original post that I was responding to Rand.  Now, you appear to be backing away from your comment. Hmmm&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/05/28/cautions-about-bolden-and-garver/#comment-245665</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 20:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2349#comment-245665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And I don&#039;t know why you continue to call Alan Wasser &quot;David Wasser.&quot;  It makes me wonder how carefully you read what he wrote.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I don&#8217;t know why you continue to call Alan Wasser &#8220;David Wasser.&#8221;  It makes me wonder how carefully you read what he wrote.</p>
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