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	<title>Comments on: Taking a chance with &#8220;the Deciders&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Marcel F. Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-268636</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marcel F. Williams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-268636</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Augustine commission did a terrible job of cost comparisons and timelines. They lumped NASA&#039;s Sidemount-HLV in with DIRECT. They&#039;re totally different concepts with different cost and different timelines of development. Then they financially burdened both concepts with a 5 year shuttle extension which they didn&#039;t place on the Ares 1 and Ares V  scenario. And then they ignored the capability of the Sidemount and DIRECT to place humans into LEO and  allied them with a commercial manned option which does not currently exist. Why?  

If the Augustine commission really  didn&#039;t want to review the Sidemount and DIRECT concepts, they just just should have said so!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Augustine commission did a terrible job of cost comparisons and timelines. They lumped NASA&#8217;s Sidemount-HLV in with DIRECT. They&#8217;re totally different concepts with different cost and different timelines of development. Then they financially burdened both concepts with a 5 year shuttle extension which they didn&#8217;t place on the Ares 1 and Ares V  scenario. And then they ignored the capability of the Sidemount and DIRECT to place humans into LEO and  allied them with a commercial manned option which does not currently exist. Why?  </p>
<p>If the Augustine commission really  didn&#8217;t want to review the Sidemount and DIRECT concepts, they just just should have said so!</p>
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		<title>By: G Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267716</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[G Clark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have no problem with &#039;saving&#039; (as it were) the Ares I...as long as they agree to do it on a fixed price contract with milestones to receive payments.  You know, the kind of contract SpaceX and Orbital have.

Oh, wait.  I forgot.  We can&#039;t have a level playing field.

Never mind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no problem with &#8216;saving&#8217; (as it were) the Ares I&#8230;as long as they agree to do it on a fixed price contract with milestones to receive payments.  You know, the kind of contract SpaceX and Orbital have.</p>
<p>Oh, wait.  I forgot.  We can&#8217;t have a level playing field.</p>
<p>Never mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Vacuum.Head</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267579</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vacuum.Head]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Very Proper Gander

If I were an American Taxpayer I would be immensely proud of the Committee on Human Spaceflight. Not that any of the Panel were paid anything more than expenses. Their task was... IS monumental and their public analysis and decision making: even handed. Short of letting an independent body, like Roskosmos, take over! Joking aside the one thing that really impressed me, as an external observer of the process; luckily able to watch most of the proceedings and read much of the documentation: was the allowance of submissions from both ESA and Roskosmos to the process. Only a year earlier such submissions would have been unthinkable; as America went its own way with a solitary Vision. 

From everything I have seen the panel are all clearly space enthusiasts and despite all having personal/ private agendas, as do we all, have put these aside and comported themselves impeccably. At great service to your Nation. The above none too subtle piece of propaganda, however, does them a disservice and by extension the vested interests that no doubt funded it. It reeks of the &quot;status quo&quot;. Not at all in keeping with a country dedicated to permanent revolution. 

Whilst I have every confidence that the experts and advisors that President Obama has enlisted to support him in these troubled times will transform reasoned &#039;options&#039; into solid &#039;recommendations&#039;. Once Congress gets hold of them...

&lt;cite&gt;&quot;An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.&quot;
Mahatma Gandhi (1927)&lt;/cite&gt;

Or as James Thurber so wisely said:
&quot;Moral: Anybody who you or your wife thinks is going to overthrow the government by violence must be driven out of the country.&quot; ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Very Proper Gander</p>
<p>If I were an American Taxpayer I would be immensely proud of the Committee on Human Spaceflight. Not that any of the Panel were paid anything more than expenses. Their task was&#8230; IS monumental and their public analysis and decision making: even handed. Short of letting an independent body, like Roskosmos, take over! Joking aside the one thing that really impressed me, as an external observer of the process; luckily able to watch most of the proceedings and read much of the documentation: was the allowance of submissions from both ESA and Roskosmos to the process. Only a year earlier such submissions would have been unthinkable; as America went its own way with a solitary Vision. </p>
<p>From everything I have seen the panel are all clearly space enthusiasts and despite all having personal/ private agendas, as do we all, have put these aside and comported themselves impeccably. At great service to your Nation. The above none too subtle piece of propaganda, however, does them a disservice and by extension the vested interests that no doubt funded it. It reeks of the &#8220;status quo&#8221;. Not at all in keeping with a country dedicated to permanent revolution. </p>
<p>Whilst I have every confidence that the experts and advisors that President Obama has enlisted to support him in these troubled times will transform reasoned &#8216;options&#8217; into solid &#8216;recommendations&#8217;. Once Congress gets hold of them&#8230;</p>
<p><cite>&#8220;An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained.&#8221;<br />
Mahatma Gandhi (1927)</cite></p>
<p>Or as James Thurber so wisely said:<br />
&#8220;Moral: Anybody who you or your wife thinks is going to overthrow the government by violence must be driven out of the country.&#8221; <img src="http://www.spacepolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
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		<title>By: SpaceMan</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267545</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SpaceMan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 22:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267545</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan&lt;/i&gt;

Don&#039;t know much history eah ? Take your political blinders off and maybe you will be able to &quot;see&quot; some of reality.

The &quot;blame&quot; for the US space program being in the groove/rut it is in has many parents reaching back to LBJ&amp; Nixon not to mention all the excessively gutless Congresses along the way. Many are the guilty parties and few are ever noted in public. Time to do your homework there junior. Or maybe you&#039;ll just ask for new talking points from your handlers which is the path to insanity.

Time to choose.

And all you naysayers are gonna be real surprised as the path forward unfolds going forward. Stay tuned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan</i></p>
<p>Don&#8217;t know much history eah ? Take your political blinders off and maybe you will be able to &#8220;see&#8221; some of reality.</p>
<p>The &#8220;blame&#8221; for the US space program being in the groove/rut it is in has many parents reaching back to LBJ&amp; Nixon not to mention all the excessively gutless Congresses along the way. Many are the guilty parties and few are ever noted in public. Time to do your homework there junior. Or maybe you&#8217;ll just ask for new talking points from your handlers which is the path to insanity.</p>
<p>Time to choose.</p>
<p>And all you naysayers are gonna be real surprised as the path forward unfolds going forward. Stay tuned.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Lassiter</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug Lassiter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan&lt;/i&gt;

I guess Bush himself beat the &quot;liberals&quot; to it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan</i></p>
<p>I guess Bush himself beat the &#8220;liberals&#8221; to it.</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Doug:

However much I (and I am sure others as well) enjoy your support of commercial space, it&#039;d be way more constructive if you were to refrain from the political nonsense such as below since it is this current WH that is trying to promote commercial space, a very capitalist stand, is it not? Please make an effort.

&quot;It was well know prior to the election the Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan and get back to the rudderless to go nowhereâ€¦â€

&quot;However do not let the left kill the deep space driver.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Doug:</p>
<p>However much I (and I am sure others as well) enjoy your support of commercial space, it&#8217;d be way more constructive if you were to refrain from the political nonsense such as below since it is this current WH that is trying to promote commercial space, a very capitalist stand, is it not? Please make an effort.</p>
<p>&#8220;It was well know prior to the election the Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan and get back to the rudderless to go nowhereâ€¦â€</p>
<p>&#8220;However do not let the left kill the deep space driver.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267537</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267537</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ares is a failed concept driven way beyond common sense by a horns down lunatic in total self denial &quot;Griffin&quot;. Driven to the point where it now threatens to up end the deep space goal. It was well know prior to the election the Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan and get back to the rudderless to go nowhere...&quot;ISS science theme&quot;. Griffin made it easy for them the panel did there bidding. I&#039;m convinced its time to axe the Ares replace it with Atlas V or FALCON. Pursue a commercial based structure. However do not let the left kill the deep space driver. Abandon the ISS in 2015 and focus the funding on commercial deep space development.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ares is a failed concept driven way beyond common sense by a horns down lunatic in total self denial &#8220;Griffin&#8221;. Driven to the point where it now threatens to up end the deep space goal. It was well know prior to the election the Liberals wanted to derail the Bush deep space plan and get back to the rudderless to go nowhere&#8230;&#8221;ISS science theme&#8221;. Griffin made it easy for them the panel did there bidding. I&#8217;m convinced its time to axe the Ares replace it with Atlas V or FALCON. Pursue a commercial based structure. However do not let the left kill the deep space driver. Abandon the ISS in 2015 and focus the funding on commercial deep space development.</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267522</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267522</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Rand Simberg:

My recollection, and I will admit I&#039;ve been proven wrong before, is that the 4 segment SRB was not able to lift the &quot;then&quot; CEV. At that time a 5 segment option was explored which brought all kinds of other problems since now the vehicle was going real fast real low. Bear in mind that at that time there was no redesign of the propellant inside the SRB. Things have probably changed since then (2005-2006) as we all know...

FWIW.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rand Simberg:</p>
<p>My recollection, and I will admit I&#8217;ve been proven wrong before, is that the 4 segment SRB was not able to lift the &#8220;then&#8221; CEV. At that time a 5 segment option was explored which brought all kinds of other problems since now the vehicle was going real fast real low. Bear in mind that at that time there was no redesign of the propellant inside the SRB. Things have probably changed since then (2005-2006) as we all know&#8230;</p>
<p>FWIW.</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267521</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267521</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Al Fansome:

&quot;The real question is what will replace the current strategy.&quot;

It will be Deep Space with commercial crew to LEO and:

 - most effective bang for buck: option 7 (i.e. EELV, if they find out what to do with ATK workforce).
 - most politically effective solution (the least expensive of below but risky development costs): 
     . option 6 (Ares Lite).
     . option 7S (Shuttle derived)

http://www.nasa.gov/ppt/378554main_01%20-%20Integrated%20Options_2009Aug12.ppt#478,29,Slide 29

http://www.nasa.gov/ppt/378656main_04_-_Presentation4.ppt#257,2,Slide 2]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Al Fansome:</p>
<p>&#8220;The real question is what will replace the current strategy.&#8221;</p>
<p>It will be Deep Space with commercial crew to LEO and:</p>
<p> &#8211; most effective bang for buck: option 7 (i.e. EELV, if they find out what to do with ATK workforce).<br />
 &#8211; most politically effective solution (the least expensive of below but risky development costs):<br />
     . option 6 (Ares Lite).<br />
     . option 7S (Shuttle derived)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nasa.gov/ppt/378554main_01%20-%20Integrated%20Options_2009Aug12.ppt#478,29,Slide" rel="nofollow">http://www.nasa.gov/ppt/378554main_01%20-%20Integrated%20Options_2009Aug12.ppt#478,29,Slide</a> 29</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nasa.gov/ppt/378656main_04_-_Presentation4.ppt#257,2,Slide" rel="nofollow">http://www.nasa.gov/ppt/378656main_04_-_Presentation4.ppt#257,2,Slide</a> 2</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/09/02/taking-a-chance-with-the-deciders/#comment-267519</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2554#comment-267519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;The sad part is that this was all basically predicted by the Stafford Commission, when they made â€œaffordabilityâ€ and â€œsustainabilityâ€ in to their mantra.&lt;/em&gt;

I think you mean Aldridge Commission.  Stafford Commission was Bush&#039;s father&#039;s commission.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The sad part is that this was all basically predicted by the Stafford Commission, when they made â€œaffordabilityâ€ and â€œsustainabilityâ€ in to their mantra.</em></p>
<p>I think you mean Aldridge Commission.  Stafford Commission was Bush&#8217;s father&#8217;s commission.</p>
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