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	<title>Comments on: Flexible paths, flexible deadlines?</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Major Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274678</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Major Tom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Yes, the U.S. spends large sums on fusion research each year&quot;

No, we don&#039;t.  Total funding for fusion energy sciences is only about $300 million per year.

http://www.ofes.fusion.doe.gov/FusionDocuments/07FES.pdf

That&#039;s a small fraction of the annual STS or ISS budget.

&quot;You didnâ€™t limit your statement to the United States, you merely stated their was a 78 year gap between Columbus and the first settlements.&quot;

Non-U.S.:
 
In 1496 the town of Nueva Isabela was founded by Bartolomeo Columbus on the island of Hispanola, and was destroyed by a hurricane less than eight years later.
 
Santa MarÃ­a la Antigua del DariÃ©n was a settlement established in 1510 by Spanish explorer Vasco NÃºÃ±ez de Balboa on the Caribbean coast of what is now Darien, between Panama and Colombia.  In 1519, Santa MarÃ­a la Antigua del DariÃ©n was abandoned and in 1524 was attacked and burned by the indigenous people.
 
Joao Alvares Fagundes organized several expeditions to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia around 1520-1521.  His colony in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia was only five years old when it was abandoned. Hostility from the natives, and extremes of temperature to which the Portuguese colonists were not accustomed, are often cited as causes of the project&#039;s failure.
 
In 1534, King Francis I sent Jacques Cartier on the first of three voyages to explore the coast of Newfoundland and the St. Lawrence River. The French subsequently tried to establish several colonies throughout North America that failed, due to weather, disease or conflict with other European powers.  Cartier attempted to create the first permanent European settlement in North America at Cap-Rouge in 1541 with 400 settlers but the settlement was abandoned the next year after bad weather and Indian attacks. 
 
From 1555 to 1567, French Huguenots, under the leadership of vice-admiral Nicolas Durand de Villegaignon, made an attempt to establish the colony of France Antarctique in what is now Brazil, but were expelled.
 
More U.S.:
 
A small group of French troops were left on Parris Island, South Carolina in 1562 to build Charlesfort, but left after a year when they were not resupplied from France.
 
The French established Fort Caroline in present-day Jacksonville, Florida in 1564, which lasted only a year before being destroyed by the Spanish. 
 
&quot;So being proved wrong you are once again grasping at straws to avoid admitting you were WRONG. Sheeshâ€¦.&quot;
 
I&#039;m not wrong.  See directly above.
 
&quot;Next you will probably be limiting it to the settlement of New York Cityâ€¦.&quot;
 
Don&#039;t exaggerate.  I didn&#039;t and I&#039;m not.  See above.
 
&quot;BTW Settling within the boundaries of the United States wasnâ€™t high on their list for a number of reasons. 
 
Whose list?
 
Your point?
 
&quot;But it wasnâ€™t due to a lack of technology.&quot;
 
What does technology have to do with it?
 
Your point?
 
&quot;As for the astronauts having fear of Zero G, you got to be kidding. (Roll Eyes)... The astronauts were worried about the rockets blowing up, not the effects of zero G.&quot;
 
In a prior post, you claimed that John Young stated &quot;The mere experiment of eating under weightlessness caused some concern.&quot;  Now you claim that the early astronauts were not worried about &quot;the effects of zero G&quot;.
 
Which is it?
 
&quot;If you read the Right Stuff...&quot;
 
Be careful.  &quot;The Right Stuff&quot; is a piece of new journalism.  It&#039;s not a purely historical text.
 
&quot;... you would see the astronauts thought the medical researchers were nuts to worry about it... It was the doctors that kept the brakes on Project Mercury by insisting they test chimps first, costing the U.S. to lose the honor of the first man in space to the Soviets by being too cautious.&quot;
 
None of which means that some astronauts didn&#039;t have some microgravity health concerns, whether legitimate or not.
 
&quot;And donâ€™t insult the astronauts that way,&quot;
 
I didn&#039;t.  I stated that &quot;Iâ€™m not going to debate whether Young or other astronauts had various health fears, both legitimate and not so legitimate, about the missions the undertook. Of course they did. Any of us would.&quot;
 
Assuming that astronauts are human and experience human feelings is not insulting.
 
&quot;the ones I have worked with have little fear of the medical hazards of space&quot;
 
Of course astronauts today don&#039;t have the same fears as the early astronauts.  Humans have been flying in LEO for over 40 years now.
 
&quot;Really you are losing your creditability [sic]&quot;
 
You really shouldn&#039;t accuse other posters of losing credibility if you can&#039;t spell credibility.
 
Oy vey...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Yes, the U.S. spends large sums on fusion research each year&#8221;</p>
<p>No, we don&#8217;t.  Total funding for fusion energy sciences is only about $300 million per year.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ofes.fusion.doe.gov/FusionDocuments/07FES.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ofes.fusion.doe.gov/FusionDocuments/07FES.pdf</a></p>
<p>That&#8217;s a small fraction of the annual STS or ISS budget.</p>
<p>&#8220;You didnâ€™t limit your statement to the United States, you merely stated their was a 78 year gap between Columbus and the first settlements.&#8221;</p>
<p>Non-U.S.:</p>
<p>In 1496 the town of Nueva Isabela was founded by Bartolomeo Columbus on the island of Hispanola, and was destroyed by a hurricane less than eight years later.</p>
<p>Santa MarÃ­a la Antigua del DariÃ©n was a settlement established in 1510 by Spanish explorer Vasco NÃºÃ±ez de Balboa on the Caribbean coast of what is now Darien, between Panama and Colombia.  In 1519, Santa MarÃ­a la Antigua del DariÃ©n was abandoned and in 1524 was attacked and burned by the indigenous people.</p>
<p>Joao Alvares Fagundes organized several expeditions to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia around 1520-1521.  His colony in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia was only five years old when it was abandoned. Hostility from the natives, and extremes of temperature to which the Portuguese colonists were not accustomed, are often cited as causes of the project&#8217;s failure.</p>
<p>In 1534, King Francis I sent Jacques Cartier on the first of three voyages to explore the coast of Newfoundland and the St. Lawrence River. The French subsequently tried to establish several colonies throughout North America that failed, due to weather, disease or conflict with other European powers.  Cartier attempted to create the first permanent European settlement in North America at Cap-Rouge in 1541 with 400 settlers but the settlement was abandoned the next year after bad weather and Indian attacks. </p>
<p>From 1555 to 1567, French Huguenots, under the leadership of vice-admiral Nicolas Durand de Villegaignon, made an attempt to establish the colony of France Antarctique in what is now Brazil, but were expelled.</p>
<p>More U.S.:</p>
<p>A small group of French troops were left on Parris Island, South Carolina in 1562 to build Charlesfort, but left after a year when they were not resupplied from France.</p>
<p>The French established Fort Caroline in present-day Jacksonville, Florida in 1564, which lasted only a year before being destroyed by the Spanish. </p>
<p>&#8220;So being proved wrong you are once again grasping at straws to avoid admitting you were WRONG. Sheeshâ€¦.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not wrong.  See directly above.</p>
<p>&#8220;Next you will probably be limiting it to the settlement of New York Cityâ€¦.&#8221;</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t exaggerate.  I didn&#8217;t and I&#8217;m not.  See above.</p>
<p>&#8220;BTW Settling within the boundaries of the United States wasnâ€™t high on their list for a number of reasons. </p>
<p>Whose list?</p>
<p>Your point?</p>
<p>&#8220;But it wasnâ€™t due to a lack of technology.&#8221;</p>
<p>What does technology have to do with it?</p>
<p>Your point?</p>
<p>&#8220;As for the astronauts having fear of Zero G, you got to be kidding. (Roll Eyes)&#8230; The astronauts were worried about the rockets blowing up, not the effects of zero G.&#8221;</p>
<p>In a prior post, you claimed that John Young stated &#8220;The mere experiment of eating under weightlessness caused some concern.&#8221;  Now you claim that the early astronauts were not worried about &#8220;the effects of zero G&#8221;.</p>
<p>Which is it?</p>
<p>&#8220;If you read the Right Stuff&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Be careful.  &#8220;The Right Stuff&#8221; is a piece of new journalism.  It&#8217;s not a purely historical text.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230; you would see the astronauts thought the medical researchers were nuts to worry about it&#8230; It was the doctors that kept the brakes on Project Mercury by insisting they test chimps first, costing the U.S. to lose the honor of the first man in space to the Soviets by being too cautious.&#8221;</p>
<p>None of which means that some astronauts didn&#8217;t have some microgravity health concerns, whether legitimate or not.</p>
<p>&#8220;And donâ€™t insult the astronauts that way,&#8221;</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t.  I stated that &#8220;Iâ€™m not going to debate whether Young or other astronauts had various health fears, both legitimate and not so legitimate, about the missions the undertook. Of course they did. Any of us would.&#8221;</p>
<p>Assuming that astronauts are human and experience human feelings is not insulting.</p>
<p>&#8220;the ones I have worked with have little fear of the medical hazards of space&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course astronauts today don&#8217;t have the same fears as the early astronauts.  Humans have been flying in LEO for over 40 years now.</p>
<p>&#8220;Really you are losing your creditability [sic]&#8221;</p>
<p>You really shouldn&#8217;t accuse other posters of losing credibility if you can&#8217;t spell credibility.</p>
<p>Oy vey&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274057</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274057</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Ares proponents claim that its cost doesn&#039;t matter, because it will be safer than Shuttle.  Even if we accept that claim (I don&#039;t buy it), it implies that safety is the highest value.  That implies that space is unimportant, and that there is nothing to be done there worth risking lives for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Ares proponents claim that its cost doesn&#8217;t matter, because it will be safer than Shuttle.  Even if we accept that claim (I don&#8217;t buy it), it implies that safety is the highest value.  That implies that space is unimportant, and that there is nothing to be done there worth risking lives for.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Robert G. Oler</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274054</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert G. Oler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274054</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[you are correct amazingly

in my kinder gentler mode...that could have been seen as a cheap shot.  Instead it was an amazement at the Ares being more expensive then the shuttle...

the editor regrets the error

Robert g. Oler]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you are correct amazingly</p>
<p>in my kinder gentler mode&#8230;that could have been seen as a cheap shot.  Instead it was an amazement at the Ares being more expensive then the shuttle&#8230;</p>
<p>the editor regrets the error</p>
<p>Robert g. Oler</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Robert G. Oler</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274053</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert G. Oler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274053</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rand Simberg wrote @ November 12th, 2009 at 12:09 am
I wrote:
Marcel F. Williams almost anything is cheaper then the shuttle or for that matter, its dervative vehicles
Rand replied:
Not Ares. It will be more expensive.

...

you are correct amazingly

Robert G. Oler]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rand Simberg wrote @ November 12th, 2009 at 12:09 am<br />
I wrote:<br />
Marcel F. Williams almost anything is cheaper then the shuttle or for that matter, its dervative vehicles<br />
Rand replied:<br />
Not Ares. It will be more expensive.</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>you are correct amazingly</p>
<p>Robert G. Oler</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274051</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Marcel F. Williams almost anything is cheaper then the shuttle or for that matter, its dervative vehicles&lt;/em&gt;

Not Ares.  It will be more expensive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Marcel F. Williams almost anything is cheaper then the shuttle or for that matter, its dervative vehicles</em></p>
<p>Not Ares.  It will be more expensive.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Robert G. Oler</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274041</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert G. Oler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marcel F. Williams  almost anything is cheaper then the shuttle or for that matter, its dervative vehicles

Robert G. Oler]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcel F. Williams  almost anything is cheaper then the shuttle or for that matter, its dervative vehicles</p>
<p>Robert G. Oler</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Marcel F. Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274040</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marcel F. Williams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274040</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We know that it would be a lot cheaper to supply than using the space shuttle which can only transport 25 tonnes of payload into orbit per launch while an SD-HLV could transport up to 100 tonnes of payload to LEO per launch. And even a manned SD-HLV with a 22 tonne Orion-CEV should be capable of also bringing at least 50 to 75 tonnes of additional payload to orbit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We know that it would be a lot cheaper to supply than using the space shuttle which can only transport 25 tonnes of payload into orbit per launch while an SD-HLV could transport up to 100 tonnes of payload to LEO per launch. And even a manned SD-HLV with a 22 tonne Orion-CEV should be capable of also bringing at least 50 to 75 tonnes of additional payload to orbit.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Robert G. Oler</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274033</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert G. Oler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marcel F. Williams

no one knows what Skylab sized stations would cost in resupply

Robert G. Oler]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcel F. Williams</p>
<p>no one knows what Skylab sized stations would cost in resupply</p>
<p>Robert G. Oler</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274015</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;&quot;Iâ€™ve given a great deal of thought to that topic, thanks.â€&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;So are you arguing for the sake of arguing?&lt;/em&gt;

No.

&lt;em&gt;Or are you saying that you already thought everything over?&lt;/em&gt;

No, not that, either.

I&#039;m simply saying what I said.  That I&#039;ve given a great deal of thought to that topic, and written about it at length.  Or did you not follow the link?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;Iâ€™ve given a great deal of thought to that topic, thanks.â€</em></p>
<p><em>So are you arguing for the sake of arguing?</em></p>
<p>No.</p>
<p><em>Or are you saying that you already thought everything over?</em></p>
<p>No, not that, either.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m simply saying what I said.  That I&#8217;ve given a great deal of thought to that topic, and written about it at length.  Or did you not follow the link?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2009/11/06/flexible-paths-flexible-deadlines/#comment-274009</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=2752#comment-274009</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Iâ€™ve given a great deal of thought to that topic, thanks.&quot;

So are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Not exactly constructive. Or are you saying that you already thought everything over? If so you may want to get the Admin job or a job as a close consultant to the Admin. 

Very strange.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Iâ€™ve given a great deal of thought to that topic, thanks.&#8221;</p>
<p>So are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Not exactly constructive. Or are you saying that you already thought everything over? If so you may want to get the Admin job or a job as a close consultant to the Admin. </p>
<p>Very strange.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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