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	<title>Comments on: Skimming over the detailed budget</title>
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		<title>By: Lonny Eidson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-393213</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lonny Eidson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 01:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-393213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greetings! Quick question that&#039;s entirely off topic. Do you know how to make your site mobile friendly? My weblog looks weird when browsing from my apple iphone. I&#039;m trying to find a template or plugin that might be able to fix this issue. If you have any recommendations, please share. Cheers!&#124;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings! Quick question that&#8217;s entirely off topic. Do you know how to make your site mobile friendly? My weblog looks weird when browsing from my apple iphone. I&#8217;m trying to find a template or plugin that might be able to fix this issue. If you have any recommendations, please share. Cheers!|</p>
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		<title>By: Nachrichten aus der Raumfahrt kompakt &#171; Skyweek Zwei Punkt Null</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-287114</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nachrichten aus der Raumfahrt kompakt &#171; Skyweek Zwei Punkt Null]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 00:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-287114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] wÃ¼rde wiederbelebt. (ErgÃ¤nzte NASA-Budget-Dokumente, Spaceflight Now 22., The Launch Pad, Space Politics, New Scientist 23., San Francisco Chronicle [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] wÃ¼rde wiederbelebt. (ErgÃ¤nzte NASA-Budget-Dokumente, Spaceflight Now 22., The Launch Pad, Space Politics, New Scientist 23., San Francisco Chronicle [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: richardb</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286579</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richardb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Guest, the entire point of Obama&#039;s plan is to indefinitely defer BEO while getting the government out of owning LEO crewed vehicles.   Rutan takes aim at this far more significant part of the new Obama plan.  Wasn&#039;t it a fact that Griffin, et al had let contracts to SpaceX and others to do commercial cargo and then later crew trips to the ISS, if those firms could deliver?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guest, the entire point of Obama&#8217;s plan is to indefinitely defer BEO while getting the government out of owning LEO crewed vehicles.   Rutan takes aim at this far more significant part of the new Obama plan.  Wasn&#8217;t it a fact that Griffin, et al had let contracts to SpaceX and others to do commercial cargo and then later crew trips to the ISS, if those firms could deliver?</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286549</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Guest:

Yep, you&#039;re right. Moreover his statement contradicts all he&#039;s been saying over the years. Very bizarre.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Guest:</p>
<p>Yep, you&#8217;re right. Moreover his statement contradicts all he&#8217;s been saying over the years. Very bizarre.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286484</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Guest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286484</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@richardb

&quot;Mr. Rutan, a veteran aerospace designer and entrepreneur, in a letter addressed to lawmakers on Capitol Hill, says he is &quot;fearful that the commercial guys will fail&quot; to deliver on the promises to get beyond low earth orbit, and that the policy risks setting back the nation&#039;s space program. &quot;

So, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Burt doesn&#039;t attack the plans to get to LEO by commercial transportation. It&#039;s about getting beyond LEO. As far as I know the current NASA plan is not saying that beyond LEO operations will also done with commercial transportation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@richardb</p>
<p>&#8220;Mr. Rutan, a veteran aerospace designer and entrepreneur, in a letter addressed to lawmakers on Capitol Hill, says he is &#8220;fearful that the commercial guys will fail&#8221; to deliver on the promises to get beyond low earth orbit, and that the policy risks setting back the nation&#8217;s space program. &#8221;</p>
<p>So, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Burt doesn&#8217;t attack the plans to get to LEO by commercial transportation. It&#8217;s about getting beyond LEO. As far as I know the current NASA plan is not saying that beyond LEO operations will also done with commercial transportation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Joshua</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286434</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Joshua]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286434</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am guessing the hybrid engine accident has made Burt Rutan more cautious about private development of space technology.  Other companies would do well to incorporate a dose of that caution in their efforts.  

Constellation however, is not the answer.  The post shuttle gap vector began years ago, and unless shuttle is extended by three years or so, at great cost, it will be a tough hiatus.  I hope NASA will have sense to get with the new plan, discover its remarkable possibilities, and work synergistically with the commercial developers.  

In three years or so we should see at least one of the several initiatives setting some real flight test dates, hopefully full up.  Orion lite, Dragon, Dreamchaser and Cygnus development teams, are you feeling the pressure now?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am guessing the hybrid engine accident has made Burt Rutan more cautious about private development of space technology.  Other companies would do well to incorporate a dose of that caution in their efforts.  </p>
<p>Constellation however, is not the answer.  The post shuttle gap vector began years ago, and unless shuttle is extended by three years or so, at great cost, it will be a tough hiatus.  I hope NASA will have sense to get with the new plan, discover its remarkable possibilities, and work synergistically with the commercial developers.  </p>
<p>In three years or so we should see at least one of the several initiatives setting some real flight test dates, hopefully full up.  Orion lite, Dragon, Dreamchaser and Cygnus development teams, are you feeling the pressure now?</p>
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		<title>By: richardb</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richardb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All right, for those that are toasting the Obama plan, I give you Burt Rutan&#039;s
bronx cheer
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704240004575085810715611660.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_news

I agree with Burt. Obama&#039;s plan is a  big mistake.  Well its a big mistake if you want to see American&#039;s in space over the next 30 years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All right, for those that are toasting the Obama plan, I give you Burt Rutan&#8217;s<br />
bronx cheer<br />
<a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704240004575085810715611660.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_news" rel="nofollow">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704240004575085810715611660.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_news</a></p>
<p>I agree with Burt. Obama&#8217;s plan is a  big mistake.  Well its a big mistake if you want to see American&#8217;s in space over the next 30 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladislaw</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vladislaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark wrote:

&quot;It would be even more exciting if the plan was to actually do missions with this new technology.&quot;

Why does space always have to defined as space program, space is a place not a program. It is also not a war zone where we need missions. Do people that ride a commercial flight go on a &quot;mission&quot;?

If a NASA astronaut takes a commercial flight to the ISS, is it a mission? 

Why is it so hard for you to understand that the &quot;mission&quot; is the inner solar system. The &quot;program&quot; is to develope the technology we need to both, push into the commercial sector to advance America&#039;s economy, create new global markets we can capture, provide high tech jobs for the 21st, and allow NASA to move to the utilization of commercial transport for access to LEO, commercial infracture temporaty habitat facilities, in space refueling, with space based, reusable vehicle that can travel Point 2 Point anywhere in the inner solar system.


Why is that so bad, and funding constellation and billions of hardware tossed into the drink with each flight and which will put 4-8 americans in space per year, from our  high of about 60 per year with the shuttle a better solution?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;It would be even more exciting if the plan was to actually do missions with this new technology.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why does space always have to defined as space program, space is a place not a program. It is also not a war zone where we need missions. Do people that ride a commercial flight go on a &#8220;mission&#8221;?</p>
<p>If a NASA astronaut takes a commercial flight to the ISS, is it a mission? </p>
<p>Why is it so hard for you to understand that the &#8220;mission&#8221; is the inner solar system. The &#8220;program&#8221; is to develope the technology we need to both, push into the commercial sector to advance America&#8217;s economy, create new global markets we can capture, provide high tech jobs for the 21st, and allow NASA to move to the utilization of commercial transport for access to LEO, commercial infracture temporaty habitat facilities, in space refueling, with space based, reusable vehicle that can travel Point 2 Point anywhere in the inner solar system.</p>
<p>Why is that so bad, and funding constellation and billions of hardware tossed into the drink with each flight and which will put 4-8 americans in space per year, from our  high of about 60 per year with the shuttle a better solution?</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286328</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@red:

&quot;I just find it unfortunate that thereâ€™s no outline of initial astronaut missions beyond LEO â€“ not the dates for getting to those destinations, &lt;b&gt;but the dates for starting the work on those easy (relatively speaking) missions&lt;/b&gt; that probably need to happen before any of the harder ones and that I suspect donâ€™t require lots of robotic precursors or technology demonstrations.&quot;

Don&#039;t you think that we first need to understand what kind of vehicles will be available? Unless you include the design of an entirely nwe architecture how do you plan to design the missions?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@red:</p>
<p>&#8220;I just find it unfortunate that thereâ€™s no outline of initial astronaut missions beyond LEO â€“ not the dates for getting to those destinations, <b>but the dates for starting the work on those easy (relatively speaking) missions</b> that probably need to happen before any of the harder ones and that I suspect donâ€™t require lots of robotic precursors or technology demonstrations.&#8221;</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t you think that we first need to understand what kind of vehicles will be available? Unless you include the design of an entirely nwe architecture how do you plan to design the missions?</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/02/23/skimming-over-the-detailed-budget/#comment-286302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martijn Meijering]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3135#comment-286302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@MrEarl:
&lt;i&gt;I think itâ€™s the definition of â€œlong termâ€ that is the sticking point for propellant storage and transfer. Progress ships stay docked for up to 6 months at the ISS. They have also served this function, dating back to Salute 6, for over 20 years so I think there is a substantial knowledge base for propellant storage.&lt;/i&gt;

The big difference is the type of propellant. The Russian systems use noncryogenic propellants and that makes a lot of difference. You can&#039;t use those systems with cryogenic propellants since the diaphragms and bellows can&#039;t handle the low temperature. Cryogenic propellants also boil off very quickly without excellent passive and/or active cooling. Noncryogenic propellants don&#039;t boil off at all.

Still, it doesn&#039;t really matter because noncryogenic propellants make for excellent lander propellants, and off-loading the propellant from a lander is enough to get it to L1/L2 with current launch vehicles and current upper stages for as EDS. I&#039;ve described the details in an earlier post in this thread, and it would be a wash cost-wise. If we wanted to do exploration soon, we could do it this way, no HLV needed. We could even take immediate advantage of cryogenic propellant transfer once it became available: we could use refuelable upper stages as EDSs and, once refueled at L1/L2, as crasher / uncrasher stages for the lander, reducing both cost/kg and IMLEO.

Of course, it is more likely that we won&#039;t do exploration anytime soon. In that case, cryogenic propellant transfer and storage would likely be ready by the time we wanted to go beyond LEO. In that case there would be no reason to stay away from cryogenics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MrEarl:<br />
<i>I think itâ€™s the definition of â€œlong termâ€ that is the sticking point for propellant storage and transfer. Progress ships stay docked for up to 6 months at the ISS. They have also served this function, dating back to Salute 6, for over 20 years so I think there is a substantial knowledge base for propellant storage.</i></p>
<p>The big difference is the type of propellant. The Russian systems use noncryogenic propellants and that makes a lot of difference. You can&#8217;t use those systems with cryogenic propellants since the diaphragms and bellows can&#8217;t handle the low temperature. Cryogenic propellants also boil off very quickly without excellent passive and/or active cooling. Noncryogenic propellants don&#8217;t boil off at all.</p>
<p>Still, it doesn&#8217;t really matter because noncryogenic propellants make for excellent lander propellants, and off-loading the propellant from a lander is enough to get it to L1/L2 with current launch vehicles and current upper stages for as EDS. I&#8217;ve described the details in an earlier post in this thread, and it would be a wash cost-wise. If we wanted to do exploration soon, we could do it this way, no HLV needed. We could even take immediate advantage of cryogenic propellant transfer once it became available: we could use refuelable upper stages as EDSs and, once refueled at L1/L2, as crasher / uncrasher stages for the lander, reducing both cost/kg and IMLEO.</p>
<p>Of course, it is more likely that we won&#8217;t do exploration anytime soon. In that case, cryogenic propellant transfer and storage would likely be ready by the time we wanted to go beyond LEO. In that case there would be no reason to stay away from cryogenics.</p>
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