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	<title>Comments on: A difference of opinion between space subcommittee&#8217;s leaders</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-302420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 07:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-302420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Once again, with Flexible Path, NASA would be focussing on TOO MANY directions at the same time. Hence, the specialized-for-a-specific-destination spacecrafts will never get built. Lunar development is going to require highly specialized landing craft. This idiotic avoidance of deep gravity wells, via the Flexible Path asteroid jaunts, is going to lead to inferior space vehicles, and will teach us NOTHING about the advanced landing technologies that we&#039;d need to work towards, if we are ever to do more ambitious manned landings on places like Mars, in the future. Have you even read recent articles about just how stupendously difficult it would be to merely soft-land a heavy payload onto the Red Planet?? THAT task is going to require major capabilities, which do NOT exist yet, but which a Lunar Return can teach us a lot about eventually doing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, with Flexible Path, NASA would be focussing on TOO MANY directions at the same time. Hence, the specialized-for-a-specific-destination spacecrafts will never get built. Lunar development is going to require highly specialized landing craft. This idiotic avoidance of deep gravity wells, via the Flexible Path asteroid jaunts, is going to lead to inferior space vehicles, and will teach us NOTHING about the advanced landing technologies that we&#8217;d need to work towards, if we are ever to do more ambitious manned landings on places like Mars, in the future. Have you even read recent articles about just how stupendously difficult it would be to merely soft-land a heavy payload onto the Red Planet?? THAT task is going to require major capabilities, which do NOT exist yet, but which a Lunar Return can teach us a lot about eventually doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-302310</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 18:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-302310</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;We focus on the Moon first, because it is the closest and most easiest destination to reach.&lt;/em&gt;

No, we focus on making it possible to get anywhere beyond LEO first, and then we can figure out where we want to go, and how much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>We focus on the Moon first, because it is the closest and most easiest destination to reach.</em></p>
<p>No, we focus on making it possible to get anywhere beyond LEO first, and then we can figure out where we want to go, and how much.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-302180</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 08:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-302180</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Rand Simberg.....Flexible Path puts our attention in way too many directions, all at once!  We should be focussed, and conduct our forays using our past capabilities---with just a little updating---and RETURN to a past destination, in order to expand the scope of our operations there. The Moon is turning out to be a far more fascinating &amp; valuable place than scientists ever thought! The industrial possibilities are huge. Development could indeed be a mere matter of marching! We focus on the Moon first, because it is the closest and most easiest destination to reach. We learn about managing long surface stays there first, before moving onto other worlds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rand Simberg&#8230;..Flexible Path puts our attention in way too many directions, all at once!  We should be focussed, and conduct our forays using our past capabilities&#8212;with just a little updating&#8212;and RETURN to a past destination, in order to expand the scope of our operations there. The Moon is turning out to be a far more fascinating &amp; valuable place than scientists ever thought! The industrial possibilities are huge. Development could indeed be a mere matter of marching! We focus on the Moon first, because it is the closest and most easiest destination to reach. We learn about managing long surface stays there first, before moving onto other worlds.</p>
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		<title>By: Space Politics Â» A difference of opinion between space &#8230; &#124; Commercial Space Travel</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-301957</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Space Politics Â» A difference of opinion between space &#8230; &#124; Commercial Space Travel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 02:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-301957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] more here: Space Politics Â» A difference of opinion between space &#8230;   Share and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] more here: Space Politics Â» A difference of opinion between space &#8230;   Share and [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-301950</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 01:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-301950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;@ Brobof &amp; Doug Lasiterâ€¦. So you two would just have NASA do nothing but hover in LEO for the next 15 or 20 years??! (THIS IS WHAT HAPPPENS UNDER OBAMAâ€™S PLAN, regardless)&lt;/em&gt;

That was what was happening under Constellation, with little prospects for ever getting even back to the moon, let alone anywhere else.  Flexible path isn&#039;t a destination -- it&#039;s an actual capability.  That&#039;s why it&#039;s called flexible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>@ Brobof &amp; Doug Lasiterâ€¦. So you two would just have NASA do nothing but hover in LEO for the next 15 or 20 years??! (THIS IS WHAT HAPPPENS UNDER OBAMAâ€™S PLAN, regardless)</em></p>
<p>That was what was happening under Constellation, with little prospects for ever getting even back to the moon, let alone anywhere else.  Flexible path isn&#8217;t a destination &#8212; it&#8217;s an actual capability.  That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s called flexible.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-301930</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 00:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-301930</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Brobof &amp; Doug Lasiter.... So you two would just have NASA do nothing but hover in LEO for the next 15 or 20 years??!  (THIS IS WHAT HAPPPENS UNDER OBAMA&#039;S PLAN, regardless). If we follow Obama on all this, then the only reason to ever break low earth orbit and go out into the void is to reach 100% Virgin Territory. In other words, we NEVER actually set up shop ANYPLACE. We just go to experience that mad rush of euphoria: &quot;Oh, to be the First, just to get there!&quot;  Then we plant our flag, grab a few rocks, and NEVER ever go back THERE again. We&#039;re done with THAT place forever!  Now onto the NEXT planetoid!  Wash &amp; repeat. People, Flexible Path is the biggest deception ever tossed on the space interest community!  It promises a ton, but actually will deliver NOTHING!  When we&#039;re all done with those one-time-only jaunts to miscellaneous asteroids, then what? What really follows THEN?  There&#039;s SO much doom &amp; gloom in Flexible Path, and it leads squarely to nothing &amp; NO progress.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Brobof &amp; Doug Lasiter&#8230;. So you two would just have NASA do nothing but hover in LEO for the next 15 or 20 years??!  (THIS IS WHAT HAPPPENS UNDER OBAMA&#8217;S PLAN, regardless). If we follow Obama on all this, then the only reason to ever break low earth orbit and go out into the void is to reach 100% Virgin Territory. In other words, we NEVER actually set up shop ANYPLACE. We just go to experience that mad rush of euphoria: &#8220;Oh, to be the First, just to get there!&#8221;  Then we plant our flag, grab a few rocks, and NEVER ever go back THERE again. We&#8217;re done with THAT place forever!  Now onto the NEXT planetoid!  Wash &amp; repeat. People, Flexible Path is the biggest deception ever tossed on the space interest community!  It promises a ton, but actually will deliver NOTHING!  When we&#8217;re all done with those one-time-only jaunts to miscellaneous asteroids, then what? What really follows THEN?  There&#8217;s SO much doom &amp; gloom in Flexible Path, and it leads squarely to nothing &amp; NO progress.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Lassiter</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-301689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug Lassiter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 17:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-301689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;the Lunar surface resembles plenty the stark, airless, extreme temperature, vacuum conditions of far-deep space.&quot;

No it doesn&#039;t. Deep space doesn&#039;t have temperature extremes. Vacuum/airless? Go to LEO. Starkness? Well, um ...

&quot;whatever length of time you spend upon its surface, or in orbit around it, you are clearly rehearsing the situation of interplanetary-distance flight. Keeping men alive there for five or six months, is in itself a test-bed case for the one-way trip to Mars.&quot;

International Space Station. Check that box. Oh, but then there&#039;s that starkness we&#039;ve got to get used to. Maybe LEO isn&#039;t stark enough?

&quot;There is a treasure trove of natural resources to be utilized.&quot;

So say some people. But the proof of that will come before humans are necessary to be there with shovels and driving bulldozers.

&quot;Constellation was all open ended about how quick weâ€™d get on with that&quot;

The words &quot;quick&quot; and &quot;Constellation&quot; don&#039;t go together. Open-ended? I&#039;ll say. The end was never really in sight.

Re Antarctic exploration &quot;The expansion of the human presence on the glaciated continent. We go back to the Moon, to transform it into humanityâ€™s overseas province! &quot;

Riiiight. Much like we did with Antarctica. Humanity&#039;s overseas province, eh? Have you ever wintered over there? The outdoor pool isn&#039;t heated, you know. Yes, we put human beings in Antarctica because there was good work to do there, but also because telerobotics didn&#039;t exist. And also because compared to space, putting humans there is dirt cheap. 

Get a grip. The lunar surface is not off the table in the new strategy. In Constellation, the Moon *was* the table. That was the problem.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the Lunar surface resembles plenty the stark, airless, extreme temperature, vacuum conditions of far-deep space.&#8221;</p>
<p>No it doesn&#8217;t. Deep space doesn&#8217;t have temperature extremes. Vacuum/airless? Go to LEO. Starkness? Well, um &#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;whatever length of time you spend upon its surface, or in orbit around it, you are clearly rehearsing the situation of interplanetary-distance flight. Keeping men alive there for five or six months, is in itself a test-bed case for the one-way trip to Mars.&#8221;</p>
<p>International Space Station. Check that box. Oh, but then there&#8217;s that starkness we&#8217;ve got to get used to. Maybe LEO isn&#8217;t stark enough?</p>
<p>&#8220;There is a treasure trove of natural resources to be utilized.&#8221;</p>
<p>So say some people. But the proof of that will come before humans are necessary to be there with shovels and driving bulldozers.</p>
<p>&#8220;Constellation was all open ended about how quick weâ€™d get on with that&#8221;</p>
<p>The words &#8220;quick&#8221; and &#8220;Constellation&#8221; don&#8217;t go together. Open-ended? I&#8217;ll say. The end was never really in sight.</p>
<p>Re Antarctic exploration &#8220;The expansion of the human presence on the glaciated continent. We go back to the Moon, to transform it into humanityâ€™s overseas province! &#8221;</p>
<p>Riiiight. Much like we did with Antarctica. Humanity&#8217;s overseas province, eh? Have you ever wintered over there? The outdoor pool isn&#8217;t heated, you know. Yes, we put human beings in Antarctica because there was good work to do there, but also because telerobotics didn&#8217;t exist. And also because compared to space, putting humans there is dirt cheap. </p>
<p>Get a grip. The lunar surface is not off the table in the new strategy. In Constellation, the Moon *was* the table. That was the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: brobof</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-301673</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brobof]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 15:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-301673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris Castro wrote @ May 7th, 2010 at 11:51 pm 
The Moon is 1.282 seconds away. Say 2 secs for latency and packet switching. 

Space has a temperature of 2.725 deg. Kelvin. The Moon varies from 100-390 K. In short the Moon simulates the Moon and nowhere else. Just to hilight one little example: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nasa.gov/topics/moonmars/features/electric-craters.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Electric Craters&lt;/a&gt;. 

You can simulate the interplanetary flight at the ISS and the radiation exposure with some shielding and mice in Lunar Orbit.

&quot;There is a treasure trove of natural resources to be utilized. Industrial development can take place.&quot; 

Well putting the OST and Moon Treaty to one side; if this were true why hasn&#039;t the Moon Rush started already? The answer is that there is a cheaper treasure trove on the ocean floor and as your gulf coast is discovering it ain&#039;t that easy! As others have pointed out even if there were Moon Diamonds and Platinum Rocks (which there are btw) it would not be cost effective to mine the Moon without some game changer like matter transmission or anti-gravity.

There is no Anti-Moon Lobby. (With the notable exception of Zubrin et al.) There is a pro-sustainable space program lobby (me) that realises that the Moon can be explored and (shh) exploited using robots. And is trying to get the message across to people who want the glory days of Apollo all over again that the place for humans in the space exploration loop are in locations where ROVs fear to tread. I.e. where comms latency and chaotic conditions prevail.

And the real reason for American Adventures in Antarctica? Byrd! But let&#039;s not go there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris Castro wrote @ May 7th, 2010 at 11:51 pm<br />
The Moon is 1.282 seconds away. Say 2 secs for latency and packet switching. </p>
<p>Space has a temperature of 2.725 deg. Kelvin. The Moon varies from 100-390 K. In short the Moon simulates the Moon and nowhere else. Just to hilight one little example: <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/topics/moonmars/features/electric-craters.html" rel="nofollow">Electric Craters</a>. </p>
<p>You can simulate the interplanetary flight at the ISS and the radiation exposure with some shielding and mice in Lunar Orbit.</p>
<p>&#8220;There is a treasure trove of natural resources to be utilized. Industrial development can take place.&#8221; </p>
<p>Well putting the OST and Moon Treaty to one side; if this were true why hasn&#8217;t the Moon Rush started already? The answer is that there is a cheaper treasure trove on the ocean floor and as your gulf coast is discovering it ain&#8217;t that easy! As others have pointed out even if there were Moon Diamonds and Platinum Rocks (which there are btw) it would not be cost effective to mine the Moon without some game changer like matter transmission or anti-gravity.</p>
<p>There is no Anti-Moon Lobby. (With the notable exception of Zubrin et al.) There is a pro-sustainable space program lobby (me) that realises that the Moon can be explored and (shh) exploited using robots. And is trying to get the message across to people who want the glory days of Apollo all over again that the place for humans in the space exploration loop are in locations where ROVs fear to tread. I.e. where comms latency and chaotic conditions prevail.</p>
<p>And the real reason for American Adventures in Antarctica? Byrd! But let&#8217;s not go there.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-301656</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy Clark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 12:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-301656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Several points; I just read MrEarl&#039;s comment on my congressional requirement. Sure, I want Congress to actually s#@t or get off the pot. There has been way too much sniping and bickering about this. Congress is the organization that appropriates and spends the money. Everyone else just has a say in policy and its development. All I was saying is that we should put the responsibility for the state of the current and maybe future space program where it really belongs - on Congress. They have to put up or shut up. I wonder what the odds are of them doing either or both?

The other issue I have is a broader one that leaves me wondering why we do not just bite the bullet and develop the infrastructure that gets us to and from LEO reliably and relatively cheaply. Infrastructure ain&#039;t sexy but it is necessary. We could then tailor our LEO access vehicles to just one task and not many. as we do with current launch vehicles. For instance we could have one rocket that does nothing but lift cargo to a specific LEO and one that just takes people to that same LEO and back as necessary. Given that we can then build whatever we want to in LEO and more importantly we can develop the ships and spacecraft that can go elsewhere. Fuel depots are then just one part of a larger infrastructure.

As for diving into strange gravity wells; I guess we&#039;ll do it sooner or later but they do add a level of complexity to programs that is not necessarily warranted at the moment, especially if an atmosphere is involved

Of course, this is logical and I have very carefully avoided things like markets and money. Just want to see if we can get an exploration or exploitation philosophy in place first that most people can buy into.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several points; I just read MrEarl&#8217;s comment on my congressional requirement. Sure, I want Congress to actually s#@t or get off the pot. There has been way too much sniping and bickering about this. Congress is the organization that appropriates and spends the money. Everyone else just has a say in policy and its development. All I was saying is that we should put the responsibility for the state of the current and maybe future space program where it really belongs &#8211; on Congress. They have to put up or shut up. I wonder what the odds are of them doing either or both?</p>
<p>The other issue I have is a broader one that leaves me wondering why we do not just bite the bullet and develop the infrastructure that gets us to and from LEO reliably and relatively cheaply. Infrastructure ain&#8217;t sexy but it is necessary. We could then tailor our LEO access vehicles to just one task and not many. as we do with current launch vehicles. For instance we could have one rocket that does nothing but lift cargo to a specific LEO and one that just takes people to that same LEO and back as necessary. Given that we can then build whatever we want to in LEO and more importantly we can develop the ships and spacecraft that can go elsewhere. Fuel depots are then just one part of a larger infrastructure.</p>
<p>As for diving into strange gravity wells; I guess we&#8217;ll do it sooner or later but they do add a level of complexity to programs that is not necessarily warranted at the moment, especially if an atmosphere is involved</p>
<p>Of course, this is logical and I have very carefully avoided things like markets and money. Just want to see if we can get an exploration or exploitation philosophy in place first that most people can buy into.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/a-difference-of-opinion-between-space-subcommittees-leaders/#comment-301581</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 03:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3445#comment-301581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Doug Lassiter.....Hello. Look, the Moon is a mere three days away. THREE DAYS AWAY. Plus, the Lunar surface resembles plenty the stark, airless, extreme temperature, vacuum conditions of far-deep space. Hence, whatever length of time you spend upon its surface, or in orbit around it, you are clearly rehearsing the situation of interplanetary-distance flight. Keeping men alive there for five or six months, is in itself a test-bed case for the one-way trip to Mars. But the Moon is far more valuable, in and of itself, than just as a mere practice zone for Mars. There is a treasure trove of natural resources to be utilized. Industrial development can take place. Constellation was all open ended about how quick we&#039;d get on with that, but clearly that is the implication of the need for a Lunar Return. I am so aghast that the Anti-Moon lobby has somehow gotten the upper hand, and has the ear of the President of the U.S. no less, with their ridiculous crusade to stampede America&#039;s Return Mission there!  You got a group like the Planetary Society---who I dislike and have never joined---who have done all they can to sabotage this. Level-headed &amp; pragmatic men in Congress are now our only hope, of Obama getting overturned on this major issue. When American navy men were assigned the mission of re-exploring &amp; emplacing bases in the Antarctic, it DIDN&#039;T make a darn difference if a previous generation of discoverers had been there before!  We returned because there was major work still to be done at that destination. Manned stations on Antarctica were deemed a worthwhile endeavor for the nation. And a host of other countries followed suit. By International Geophysical Year, 1957, Americans were poised to reach the South Pole---yes, a return trip for explorers, yes----but a return which brought in its wake, newer acheivements, which Roald Amundsen &amp; Robert Falcon Scott could only imagine. The expansion of the human presence on the glaciated continent. We go back to the Moon, to transform it into humanity&#039;s overseas province!  Onward with Project Constellation!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Doug Lassiter&#8230;..Hello. Look, the Moon is a mere three days away. THREE DAYS AWAY. Plus, the Lunar surface resembles plenty the stark, airless, extreme temperature, vacuum conditions of far-deep space. Hence, whatever length of time you spend upon its surface, or in orbit around it, you are clearly rehearsing the situation of interplanetary-distance flight. Keeping men alive there for five or six months, is in itself a test-bed case for the one-way trip to Mars. But the Moon is far more valuable, in and of itself, than just as a mere practice zone for Mars. There is a treasure trove of natural resources to be utilized. Industrial development can take place. Constellation was all open ended about how quick we&#8217;d get on with that, but clearly that is the implication of the need for a Lunar Return. I am so aghast that the Anti-Moon lobby has somehow gotten the upper hand, and has the ear of the President of the U.S. no less, with their ridiculous crusade to stampede America&#8217;s Return Mission there!  You got a group like the Planetary Society&#8212;who I dislike and have never joined&#8212;who have done all they can to sabotage this. Level-headed &amp; pragmatic men in Congress are now our only hope, of Obama getting overturned on this major issue. When American navy men were assigned the mission of re-exploring &amp; emplacing bases in the Antarctic, it DIDN&#8217;T make a darn difference if a previous generation of discoverers had been there before!  We returned because there was major work still to be done at that destination. Manned stations on Antarctica were deemed a worthwhile endeavor for the nation. And a host of other countries followed suit. By International Geophysical Year, 1957, Americans were poised to reach the South Pole&#8212;yes, a return trip for explorers, yes&#8212;-but a return which brought in its wake, newer acheivements, which Roald Amundsen &amp; Robert Falcon Scott could only imagine. The expansion of the human presence on the glaciated continent. We go back to the Moon, to transform it into humanity&#8217;s overseas province!  Onward with Project Constellation!</p>
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