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	<title>Comments on: Obey no longer, and other notes</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-302591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 00:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-302591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Rand Simberg..... Buzz Aldrin denounced the usage of a separate crew-transport rocket, NOT the launch escape system. That&#039;s not what I meant. Maybe he&#039;s thinking in terms of launching the crew on board the same exact heavy-lift rocket, as was done with Apollo/ Saturn 5, decades ago. THAT was a big risk, which was deemed tolerable in the past. But this time, I believe that Constellation has a much improved scheme, with the two separate launches for the heavy-lift cargo and the main crew excursion vehicle. The lunar landing craft &amp; the earth-escape stage get put on board an unmanned launch, to a parking orbit, and are hence rendezvoused by the astronaut crew afterwards. It&#039;s more complicated, true, but it makes for a safer mission scheme.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Rand Simberg&#8230;.. Buzz Aldrin denounced the usage of a separate crew-transport rocket, NOT the launch escape system. That&#8217;s not what I meant. Maybe he&#8217;s thinking in terms of launching the crew on board the same exact heavy-lift rocket, as was done with Apollo/ Saturn 5, decades ago. THAT was a big risk, which was deemed tolerable in the past. But this time, I believe that Constellation has a much improved scheme, with the two separate launches for the heavy-lift cargo and the main crew excursion vehicle. The lunar landing craft &amp; the earth-escape stage get put on board an unmanned launch, to a parking orbit, and are hence rendezvoused by the astronaut crew afterwards. It&#8217;s more complicated, true, but it makes for a safer mission scheme.</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-302315</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 19:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-302315</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@  Rand Simberg wrote @ May 10th, 2010 at 5:49 pm 

OSP was a replacement in asmuch as a crew vehicle to ISS that was supposed to be separate from the cargo vehicle. The OSP did not really die it was changed into the CEV. The Phase 1 of the CEV under O&#039;Keefe really was nothing but an improved OSP, at least initially.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@  Rand Simberg wrote @ May 10th, 2010 at 5:49 pm </p>
<p>OSP was a replacement in asmuch as a crew vehicle to ISS that was supposed to be separate from the cargo vehicle. The OSP did not really die it was changed into the CEV. The Phase 1 of the CEV under O&#8217;Keefe really was nothing but an improved OSP, at least initially.</p>
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		<title>By: aremisasling</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-302232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[aremisasling]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 14:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-302232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris, your problem is that you pose a false dichotomy.  The choice wasn&#039;t Ares I vs manned Ares V.  The choice was between Ares I and it&#039;s alternatives.  We didn&#039;t need Ares I, we needed a crew transport for the rendezvous phase.  Ares I is an option, but not the only one, even if we stick to shuttle derived concepts.

Aremis]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, your problem is that you pose a false dichotomy.  The choice wasn&#8217;t Ares I vs manned Ares V.  The choice was between Ares I and it&#8217;s alternatives.  We didn&#8217;t need Ares I, we needed a crew transport for the rendezvous phase.  Ares I is an option, but not the only one, even if we stick to shuttle derived concepts.</p>
<p>Aremis</p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-302058</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 21:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-302058</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;Well not really. There was plans for OSP first before CEV and â€œThis early version of the plane had been expected to enter service by 2010.â€&lt;/em.

OSP died when it was decided to cancel the Shuttle, so there was no plan to replace it.  And even OSP wouldn&#039;t be a replacement.  The Shuttle, in terms of all its functionality, will never be replaced by any single system, and never should be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Well not really. There was plans for OSP first before CEV and â€œThis early version of the plane had been expected to enter service by 2010.â€&lt;/em.</p>
<p>OSP died when it was decided to cancel the Shuttle, so there was no plan to replace it.  And even OSP wouldn&#039;t be a replacement.  The Shuttle, in terms of all its functionality, will never be replaced by any single system, and never should be.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-302057</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 21:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-302057</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;It separates the launch of the crew from that of the massive-weight cargo. If a giant rocket explosion occurs, then NASA will have only lost the trans-lunar/ trans-planetary cargo, and not the astronauts.&lt;/em&gt;

Translunar/transplanetary cargo costs a heck of a lot more than astronauts.  We have lots of astronauts.

&lt;em&gt;Plus, the Aries 1/ Orion crew excursion vehicle has a launch escape system attached to the top of the CEV. In the event of a rocket breakup at launch or during most of the ascent, the crew can be saved by this piece of infrastructure. Misguided people, like Buzz Aldrin, have been denouncing this part of the Constellation plan; and they are wrong in their conclusions!&lt;/em&gt;

If you&#039;re going to pathetically attempt to defend this program, you might at least learn how to spell it.  There is no proposed crew delivery system that doesn&#039;t have a launch abort system planned for it, so this doesn&#039;t distinguish Ares/Orion in any way, other than that theirs has to be much heavier, more complex and mores expensive, because it has to be designed to out run an out-of-control or exploding solid rocket booster that can&#039;t be shut down.

And can you provide a citation from Buzz in which he objected to having a crew escape system?  Or are you just making that up?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>It separates the launch of the crew from that of the massive-weight cargo. If a giant rocket explosion occurs, then NASA will have only lost the trans-lunar/ trans-planetary cargo, and not the astronauts.</em></p>
<p>Translunar/transplanetary cargo costs a heck of a lot more than astronauts.  We have lots of astronauts.</p>
<p><em>Plus, the Aries 1/ Orion crew excursion vehicle has a launch escape system attached to the top of the CEV. In the event of a rocket breakup at launch or during most of the ascent, the crew can be saved by this piece of infrastructure. Misguided people, like Buzz Aldrin, have been denouncing this part of the Constellation plan; and they are wrong in their conclusions!</em></p>
<p>If you&#8217;re going to pathetically attempt to defend this program, you might at least learn how to spell it.  There is no proposed crew delivery system that doesn&#8217;t have a launch abort system planned for it, so this doesn&#8217;t distinguish Ares/Orion in any way, other than that theirs has to be much heavier, more complex and mores expensive, because it has to be designed to out run an out-of-control or exploding solid rocket booster that can&#8217;t be shut down.</p>
<p>And can you provide a citation from Buzz in which he objected to having a crew escape system?  Or are you just making that up?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-301933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 00:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-301933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Aries 1 rocket WAS NEEDED. Constellation&#039;s overall flight plan called for an earth-orbit rendezvous scheme, that was developed as a major safety measure. It separates the launch of the crew from that of the massive-weight cargo. If a giant rocket explosion occurs, then NASA will have only lost the trans-lunar/ trans-planetary cargo, and not the astronauts. Plus, the Aries 1/ Orion crew excursion vehicle has a launch escape system attached to the top of the CEV. In the event of a rocket breakup at launch or during most of the ascent, the crew can be saved by this piece of infrastructure. Misguided people, like Buzz Aldrin, have been denouncing this part of the Constellation plan; and they are wrong in their conclusions!  If we decided instead, to launch the astronauts on board the same exact heavy-lift rocket, we would be taking a far more higher risk of a fatal accident. (Although, the Saturn 5, it&#039;s true, did actually take on such a chance, during the Apollo program).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Aries 1 rocket WAS NEEDED. Constellation&#8217;s overall flight plan called for an earth-orbit rendezvous scheme, that was developed as a major safety measure. It separates the launch of the crew from that of the massive-weight cargo. If a giant rocket explosion occurs, then NASA will have only lost the trans-lunar/ trans-planetary cargo, and not the astronauts. Plus, the Aries 1/ Orion crew excursion vehicle has a launch escape system attached to the top of the CEV. In the event of a rocket breakup at launch or during most of the ascent, the crew can be saved by this piece of infrastructure. Misguided people, like Buzz Aldrin, have been denouncing this part of the Constellation plan; and they are wrong in their conclusions!  If we decided instead, to launch the astronauts on board the same exact heavy-lift rocket, we would be taking a far more higher risk of a fatal accident. (Although, the Saturn 5, it&#8217;s true, did actually take on such a chance, during the Apollo program).</p>
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		<title>By: red</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-301308</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[red]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 00:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-301308</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marcel: &quot;The Shuttle program was supposed to end because it was going to be replaced by the Ares I. But since Obama wants to cancel the Ares I, now there are now calls to extend the shuttle program until private industry is ready to shuttle people safely into orbit and back. So extending the shuttle program appears to be perfectly logical.&quot;

Setting aside the historical accuracy of this, the scenario you described is not perfectly logical.  Ares I is expected to be ready by about 2019, and private industry by 2016 at the latest, according to the Augustine Committee assessment.  With multiple commercial competitors instead of all eggs in the Ares I basket, and with an ability to focus on the job at hand (no need for CRV requirements, no need for lunar requirements, no need to deal with civil service rules, no need for layers of oversight and undersight for tracking cost-plus spending, etc), commercial crew has lots of other advantages over the risky Ares I/Orion plan.  If anything, the switch to private industry should reduce the calls to extend the shuttle according to this scenario.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcel: &#8220;The Shuttle program was supposed to end because it was going to be replaced by the Ares I. But since Obama wants to cancel the Ares I, now there are now calls to extend the shuttle program until private industry is ready to shuttle people safely into orbit and back. So extending the shuttle program appears to be perfectly logical.&#8221;</p>
<p>Setting aside the historical accuracy of this, the scenario you described is not perfectly logical.  Ares I is expected to be ready by about 2019, and private industry by 2016 at the latest, according to the Augustine Committee assessment.  With multiple commercial competitors instead of all eggs in the Ares I basket, and with an ability to focus on the job at hand (no need for CRV requirements, no need for lunar requirements, no need to deal with civil service rules, no need for layers of oversight and undersight for tracking cost-plus spending, etc), commercial crew has lots of other advantages over the risky Ares I/Orion plan.  If anything, the switch to private industry should reduce the calls to extend the shuttle according to this scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-301289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 23:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-301289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Rand Simberg wrote @ May 6th, 2010 at 3:14 pm 

&quot;There was no planned replacement of the Shuttle (in terms of getting crew to orbit) for three to four years after the end of the Shuttle (2014, when the CEV was supposed to be available, and hence, the gap). &quot;

Well not really. There was plans for OSP first before CEV and &quot;This early version of the plane had been expected to enter service by 2010.&quot; AND the original O&#039;Keefe/contractors plans were also looking at EELVs for CEV as a direct consequence of OSP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Space_Plane]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Rand Simberg wrote @ May 6th, 2010 at 3:14 pm </p>
<p>&#8220;There was no planned replacement of the Shuttle (in terms of getting crew to orbit) for three to four years after the end of the Shuttle (2014, when the CEV was supposed to be available, and hence, the gap). &#8221;</p>
<p>Well not really. There was plans for OSP first before CEV and &#8220;This early version of the plane had been expected to enter service by 2010.&#8221; AND the original O&#8217;Keefe/contractors plans were also looking at EELVs for CEV as a direct consequence of OSP.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Space_Plane" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Space_Plane</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rand Simberg</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-301229</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rand Simberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 19:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-301229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;The Shuttle program was supposed to end because it was going to be replaced by the Ares I.&lt;/em&gt;

No, the Shuttle was supposed to end because it was viewed as unsafe and too expensive to continue.  That&#039;s why it ended in 2010, after the planned ISS completion.  Ares I didn&#039;t exist, even in the minds of the policy makers, at the time of the decision to end Shuttle, in early 2004.  There was no planned replacement of the Shuttle (in terms of getting crew to orbit) for three to four years after the end of the Shuttle (2014, when the CEV was supposed to be available, and hence, the gap).  The flawed decision to build an expensive and unnecessary new launch system,, Ares I, just lengthened the gap.

But don&#039;t let reality get in the way of your ignorance of history.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The Shuttle program was supposed to end because it was going to be replaced by the Ares I.</em></p>
<p>No, the Shuttle was supposed to end because it was viewed as unsafe and too expensive to continue.  That&#8217;s why it ended in 2010, after the planned ISS completion.  Ares I didn&#8217;t exist, even in the minds of the policy makers, at the time of the decision to end Shuttle, in early 2004.  There was no planned replacement of the Shuttle (in terms of getting crew to orbit) for three to four years after the end of the Shuttle (2014, when the CEV was supposed to be available, and hence, the gap).  The flawed decision to build an expensive and unnecessary new launch system,, Ares I, just lengthened the gap.</p>
<p>But don&#8217;t let reality get in the way of your ignorance of history.</p>
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		<title>By: Marcel F. Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/06/obey-no-longer-and-other-notes/#comment-301203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marcel F. Williams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 17:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3442#comment-301203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Shuttle program was supposed to end because it was going to be replaced by the Ares I. But since Obama wants to cancel the Ares I, now there are now calls to extend the shuttle program until private industry is ready to shuttle people safely into orbit and back.  So extending the shuttle program appears to be perfectly logical.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Shuttle program was supposed to end because it was going to be replaced by the Ares I. But since Obama wants to cancel the Ares I, now there are now calls to extend the shuttle program until private industry is ready to shuttle people safely into orbit and back.  So extending the shuttle program appears to be perfectly logical.</p>
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