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	<title>Comments on: Nelson officially begins push for additional shuttle flight</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Gary Church</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306474</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary Church]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 04:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306474</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Ares 5 wouldâ€™ve been a perfect heavy-lifter;&quot;

I agree with you absolutely Chris that we need a heavy lift vehicle and the Ares V can put some tons up for sure....but it is not perfect. I can see these flaws.

1. SRBs are not powerful enough. Monolithic SRB&#039;s like Aerojet test fired in the 60&#039;s are far better and would allow a vehicle with a lift-off thrust two to three times that of the Saturn V. Why settle for less? Because Utah needs the business? (ATK&#039;s must be railed in, anything bigger like the aerojet solids are built in shipyards using submarine hull technology and barged to the cape).

2. No 2nd stage engine return module. The RS-68 is a great engine but we need a hydrogen engine in the same class as the F-1 that is reusable. They can re-enter with their own ablative heat shield. 

3. Wet workshop. The most important part of the whole vehicle is the empty second stage tank; that is what you build spaceships out of.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ares 5 wouldâ€™ve been a perfect heavy-lifter;&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with you absolutely Chris that we need a heavy lift vehicle and the Ares V can put some tons up for sure&#8230;.but it is not perfect. I can see these flaws.</p>
<p>1. SRBs are not powerful enough. Monolithic SRB&#8217;s like Aerojet test fired in the 60&#8217;s are far better and would allow a vehicle with a lift-off thrust two to three times that of the Saturn V. Why settle for less? Because Utah needs the business? (ATK&#8217;s must be railed in, anything bigger like the aerojet solids are built in shipyards using submarine hull technology and barged to the cape).</p>
<p>2. No 2nd stage engine return module. The RS-68 is a great engine but we need a hydrogen engine in the same class as the F-1 that is reusable. They can re-enter with their own ablative heat shield. </p>
<p>3. Wet workshop. The most important part of the whole vehicle is the empty second stage tank; that is what you build spaceships out of.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306460</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 01:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All that jazz about inventing new technology in the next five years is just ludicrous fantasy!  Really, we are going to be in virtually the same state in aerospace engineering in 2015 as we were in 2004!  The Ares 5 should be the baseline of what we are looking for, and it could be being funded properly, right now; if it were not for that Fruit-Loop glee club, who keep singing that song: &quot;We&#039;ve been there already&quot;. Ares 5 would&#039;ve been a perfect heavy-lifter; and ironically enough, asteroid missions could later on have been mounted, say to the quasi-satellite NEO, 3753 Cruithne, within a few years of the first Orion-Altair Lunar expeditions getting underway. But NO....the Anti-Moon space lobby could NOT handle that!!  Oh NO.....it&#039;s gotta be 100% virgin ground, or we&#039;re NOT ever going near it!!  It is precisely Flexible Path which is being INFLEXIBLE here!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All that jazz about inventing new technology in the next five years is just ludicrous fantasy!  Really, we are going to be in virtually the same state in aerospace engineering in 2015 as we were in 2004!  The Ares 5 should be the baseline of what we are looking for, and it could be being funded properly, right now; if it were not for that Fruit-Loop glee club, who keep singing that song: &#8220;We&#8217;ve been there already&#8221;. Ares 5 would&#8217;ve been a perfect heavy-lifter; and ironically enough, asteroid missions could later on have been mounted, say to the quasi-satellite NEO, 3753 Cruithne, within a few years of the first Orion-Altair Lunar expeditions getting underway. But NO&#8230;.the Anti-Moon space lobby could NOT handle that!!  Oh NO&#8230;..it&#8217;s gotta be 100% virgin ground, or we&#8217;re NOT ever going near it!!  It is precisely Flexible Path which is being INFLEXIBLE here!</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Russell-Gough</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306415</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Russell-Gough]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 22:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306415</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Chris Castro,

I&#039;m no partisan or fan of the Obama space plan.  However, the &lt;i&gt;realistic&lt;/i&gt; figures for Constellation put Orion/Ares-I in 2018/19 and going BEO at the middle/end of the 2020s.  In other words, about the same time-line as the President&#039;s proposals.

CxP, in its orthodox form, is so expensive that you literally couldn&#039;t afford to &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; anything with it.  That is why the President has missed a chance somewhat.  There are options that could have brought the timeline to the &#039;left&#039; somewhat without abandoning CxP, only the Ares Launch System.  Instead he has chosen to put everything on &#039;pause&#039; and, possibly, hope that someone comes up with some magical technology (or technologies) that makes it all faster and easier.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Chris Castro,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no partisan or fan of the Obama space plan.  However, the <i>realistic</i> figures for Constellation put Orion/Ares-I in 2018/19 and going BEO at the middle/end of the 2020s.  In other words, about the same time-line as the President&#8217;s proposals.</p>
<p>CxP, in its orthodox form, is so expensive that you literally couldn&#8217;t afford to <i>do</i> anything with it.  That is why the President has missed a chance somewhat.  There are options that could have brought the timeline to the &#8216;left&#8217; somewhat without abandoning CxP, only the Ares Launch System.  Instead he has chosen to put everything on &#8216;pause&#8217; and, possibly, hope that someone comes up with some magical technology (or technologies) that makes it all faster and easier.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 21:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am SO sick and tired of this &quot;We&#039;ve been there already&quot; crap, that we&#039;ve been hearing a lot of lately, with regard to resuming Lunar flights. Look, the West was NOT won, by going to a frontier once, planting a flag, and never ever returning!  Think of any great era of exploration &amp; geographical discovery in the past. A new continent or island group was surveyed by a first expedition, or even a few first expeditions, and subsequently this phase was followed by more extensive encampments &amp; prospecting activity. PROJECT CONSTELLATION WILL GET THE BALL ROLLING AGAIN. Obama&#039;s Plan, by contrast, leaves us stranded in Low Earth Orbit for another 15-20 years!  Mirror image of what we&#039;ve been doing for the past 40 years: more one-half year space station stays, just like the ones done on Skylab, Salyut, &amp; Mir. A blunt repeat of the &quot;same old way of doing things&quot;. Does not anyone out there see the deception in the Obama Plan: we can&#039;t do the Moon , because men have already been there, but we can keep right on sending them to LEO over &amp; over again, no problem. SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am SO sick and tired of this &#8220;We&#8217;ve been there already&#8221; crap, that we&#8217;ve been hearing a lot of lately, with regard to resuming Lunar flights. Look, the West was NOT won, by going to a frontier once, planting a flag, and never ever returning!  Think of any great era of exploration &amp; geographical discovery in the past. A new continent or island group was surveyed by a first expedition, or even a few first expeditions, and subsequently this phase was followed by more extensive encampments &amp; prospecting activity. PROJECT CONSTELLATION WILL GET THE BALL ROLLING AGAIN. Obama&#8217;s Plan, by contrast, leaves us stranded in Low Earth Orbit for another 15-20 years!  Mirror image of what we&#8217;ve been doing for the past 40 years: more one-half year space station stays, just like the ones done on Skylab, Salyut, &amp; Mir. A blunt repeat of the &#8220;same old way of doing things&#8221;. Does not anyone out there see the deception in the Obama Plan: we can&#8217;t do the Moon , because men have already been there, but we can keep right on sending them to LEO over &amp; over again, no problem. SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.</p>
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		<title>By: Major Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306300</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Major Tom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 16:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306300</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Blaming the Air Force for SpaceXâ€™s own repeated delays (technical or otherwise) and launch date slippages is an inconvenient truth for Musk boosters. The AF ate their homework.&quot;

Falcon 9 has been ready to launch for weeks now.  SpaceX is only waiting on USAF approval of the flight termination plan.  SpaceX has no control over military officers&#039; schedules.

Don&#039;t make stuff up.

&quot;Naturally experienced managers in the profit-driven private sector corporate world know how critical sticking to schedules can be. Perhaps you donâ€™t. Time is money.&quot;

That&#039;s why SpaceX is using a USAF range.  Better to waste a few weeks&#039; time waiting on USAF launch approval than waste years and millions of dollars purchasing land for, getting permits for, and constructing a new range out of whole cloth.

&quot;Of course if it constructed its own launch facilities like a truly private-enterprised company, AF clearences to launch from a taxpayer-funded, refurbished AF launch pad wouldnâ€™t be a problem.&quot;

This is an ignorant comment.  If it wasn&#039;t a USAF range, then the FAA would have jurisdiction and they&#039;d be responsible for approving the flight termination plan.  And again, SpaceX would have no control over FAA regulators&#039; schedules.

&quot;But the best of luck to them whenever they finally start rocketing into the Space Age with all the thrill of a missile launch, circa 1958.&quot;

Which is exactly the point.  Boring, routine, ETO transportation should be a private sector function so government resources can focus on risky R&amp;D that private sector investment won&#039;t bear.

Think before you post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Blaming the Air Force for SpaceXâ€™s own repeated delays (technical or otherwise) and launch date slippages is an inconvenient truth for Musk boosters. The AF ate their homework.&#8221;</p>
<p>Falcon 9 has been ready to launch for weeks now.  SpaceX is only waiting on USAF approval of the flight termination plan.  SpaceX has no control over military officers&#8217; schedules.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t make stuff up.</p>
<p>&#8220;Naturally experienced managers in the profit-driven private sector corporate world know how critical sticking to schedules can be. Perhaps you donâ€™t. Time is money.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why SpaceX is using a USAF range.  Better to waste a few weeks&#8217; time waiting on USAF launch approval than waste years and millions of dollars purchasing land for, getting permits for, and constructing a new range out of whole cloth.</p>
<p>&#8220;Of course if it constructed its own launch facilities like a truly private-enterprised company, AF clearences to launch from a taxpayer-funded, refurbished AF launch pad wouldnâ€™t be a problem.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is an ignorant comment.  If it wasn&#8217;t a USAF range, then the FAA would have jurisdiction and they&#8217;d be responsible for approving the flight termination plan.  And again, SpaceX would have no control over FAA regulators&#8217; schedules.</p>
<p>&#8220;But the best of luck to them whenever they finally start rocketing into the Space Age with all the thrill of a missile launch, circa 1958.&#8221;</p>
<p>Which is exactly the point.  Boring, routine, ETO transportation should be a private sector function so government resources can focus on risky R&amp;D that private sector investment won&#8217;t bear.</p>
<p>Think before you post.</p>
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		<title>By: DCSCA</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCSCA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 08:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[â€œThe last shuttle flight should abandon the Atlantis at ISS. Use it as extra volume. Whenever it becomes too unsafe, jettison it.â€  

If there are no major engineering or operational drawbacks (which there probably are regarding propellents, stability, consumables, etc.,) that would be an idea worth considering with a number of creative options. Probably a better fate than Buran. But then there&#039;s that $28 million NASA can get for a used Orbiter. (Atlantis, built for 100 flights, only 32 made- low mileage, heater, radio  blackwall tires-easy payments.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>â€œThe last shuttle flight should abandon the Atlantis at ISS. Use it as extra volume. Whenever it becomes too unsafe, jettison it.â€  </p>
<p>If there are no major engineering or operational drawbacks (which there probably are regarding propellents, stability, consumables, etc.,) that would be an idea worth considering with a number of creative options. Probably a better fate than Buran. But then there&#8217;s that $28 million NASA can get for a used Orbiter. (Atlantis, built for 100 flights, only 32 made- low mileage, heater, radio  blackwall tires-easy payments.)</p>
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		<title>By: DCSCA</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306171</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCSCA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 08:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@RandSimberg- apparently your engineering arrogance is blissfully full of excuses. How serene. Naturally experienced managers in the profit-driven private sector corporate world know how critical sticking to schedules can be. Perhaps you don&#039;t. Time is money.  But then SpaceX ain&#039;t Fedex, is it. Blaming the Air Force for SpaceX&#039;s own repeated delays (technical or otherwise) and launch date slippages is an inconvenient truth for Musk boosters. The AF ate their homework. Of course if it constructed its own launch facilities like a truly private-enterprised company, AF clearences to launch from a taxpayer-funded, refurbished AF launch pad wouldn&#039;t be a problem.   But the best of luck to them whenever they finally start rocketing into the Space Age with all the thrill of a missile launch, circa 1958.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@RandSimberg- apparently your engineering arrogance is blissfully full of excuses. How serene. Naturally experienced managers in the profit-driven private sector corporate world know how critical sticking to schedules can be. Perhaps you don&#8217;t. Time is money.  But then SpaceX ain&#8217;t Fedex, is it. Blaming the Air Force for SpaceX&#8217;s own repeated delays (technical or otherwise) and launch date slippages is an inconvenient truth for Musk boosters. The AF ate their homework. Of course if it constructed its own launch facilities like a truly private-enterprised company, AF clearences to launch from a taxpayer-funded, refurbished AF launch pad wouldn&#8217;t be a problem.   But the best of luck to them whenever they finally start rocketing into the Space Age with all the thrill of a missile launch, circa 1958.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Church</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-306049</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary Church]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 21:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-306049</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah- that darn insulation. Hate it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah- that darn insulation. Hate it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Russell-Gough</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-305997</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Russell-Gough]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 20:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-305997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gary Church asks if they could take the ETs all the way to the ISS.  

I&#039;m no expert but from what I know I&#039;d say: &quot;Er... no.  Definately not.&quot;  The first big problem is the ET&#039;s insulation.  After a while, it starts shedding, creating a cloud of potentially hazardous debris.  I&#039;m pretty sure that the safety team would be wary of allowing such stuff near the ISS.

The next big problem is moving it with sufficient accuracy to be safe near the ISS.  The ET doesn&#039;t have any manoeuvring or attitude control system of its own, so an orbiter would have to act as a tug.  I&#039;m not sure if the orbiter&#039;s flight control system could compensate for its dead weight and off-axis mass.

The final and fatal blow for this idea is that there is no way to get an ET-based cargo container into orbit unless you build a wide-body HLV and that would take three to five years, best case.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary Church asks if they could take the ETs all the way to the ISS.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m no expert but from what I know I&#8217;d say: &#8220;Er&#8230; no.  Definately not.&#8221;  The first big problem is the ET&#8217;s insulation.  After a while, it starts shedding, creating a cloud of potentially hazardous debris.  I&#8217;m pretty sure that the safety team would be wary of allowing such stuff near the ISS.</p>
<p>The next big problem is moving it with sufficient accuracy to be safe near the ISS.  The ET doesn&#8217;t have any manoeuvring or attitude control system of its own, so an orbiter would have to act as a tug.  I&#8217;m not sure if the orbiter&#8217;s flight control system could compensate for its dead weight and off-axis mass.</p>
<p>The final and fatal blow for this idea is that there is no way to get an ET-based cargo container into orbit unless you build a wide-body HLV and that would take three to five years, best case.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Church</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2010/05/26/nelson-officially-begins-push-for-additional-shuttle-flight/#comment-305954</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary Church]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 18:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=3536#comment-305954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could they take the ET&#039;s all they way to the ISS? Take the stuff out of the for once full cargo bays and intall them in the ET&#039;s. The ISS would be a real space station then. With the remaining orbiter cargo bays made airtight with an inflatable kit after unloading their payload into the ET&#039;s to make them into compartments, it would be HUGE! That is a plan, let&#039;s do it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could they take the ET&#8217;s all they way to the ISS? Take the stuff out of the for once full cargo bays and intall them in the ET&#8217;s. The ISS would be a real space station then. With the remaining orbiter cargo bays made airtight with an inflatable kit after unloading their payload into the ET&#8217;s to make them into compartments, it would be HUGE! That is a plan, let&#8217;s do it.</p>
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