At least there is a level of sanity in the Congress and cooler heads are going to prevail and there is also a level of hope. I am heartened that the Constellation can and shall be saved.

Those who are supportive of Constellation and the benefits that we all reap daily from the 50 years of our space program should and ought to thank Hon. Maj. Gen. Charles Bolden for his invigorating speech to bolster the self-esteem of Muslims for their contributions to science and technology. I must say that his trip to be on Al Jezzera TV galvanized the issue of NASA in front of Congress. Bravo! Well Done! It was as though the supporters of NASA scored a safety and drove the Obama Space Program toadies into the end zone for a 2 point safety and now have the ball with excellent field position after the free kick!

Charles Krauthammer’s reaction was equally refreshing. But, Charles Bolden and Obama have done much to help the Republicans regain the White House in 2012 and save the space program. We supporters need to keep scoring safeties with our defense and touchdowns with the offense.

> It’s not the POR. Nobody is talking moon, nobody is talking lander,
> nobody is talking Ares I or even V. This will be a less capable HLV.==

They are keeping the full up lunar capable Orion, adn Nelsen HLV would be better suited to lunar missions then Griffens Ares-I & V, and unnessisary just for LEO. So I think your getting more then you think.

It looks like they are taking the WH version of Augustine’s 5b and changing it to front-load the HLV. BEO will still have to wait until the mid to late 2020s but it doesnt appear to contradict the new asteroid path.

Technology development and robotic missions are getting kicked in the groin again. But that’s normal for NASA. Let’s see how that pays off.

Lets really not – we’ve seen how well that turns out

It looks like they are taking the WH version of Augustine’s 5b and changing it to front-load the HLV. BEO will still have to wait until the mid to late 2020s but it doesnt appear to contradict the new asteroid path.

Technology development and robotic missions are getting kicked in the groin again. But that’s normal for NASA. Let’s see how that pays off.

I tire quickly when posters reply in ways that indicate they don’t read the entirety of my posts. How many times do I need to state that one can’t defend HSF solely with spin-offs or even scientific knowledge gained?

However, when you state that the discoveries garnered from the Apollo program (including the new ‘impact’ theory of formation) could have been then or even now obtained through another less-expensive route (robotic sample return missions), you are most definitely making up an alternate history. That didn’t happen; Apollo did. THAT is the reality. One might as well speculate on how much easier WWII would have gone if Operation Valkyrie had succeeded. Great barstool reflection, but hardly much of a contribution to a meaningful discussion.

One could argue just as easily, with more substantial backing evidence, that

a) the necessary discoveries that contributed to our new understanding of the Moon/Earth system very likely would not have happened without the specific system of back-room science created for the J missions, the science-driven mission designs, the crew geology training, and the real-time assessments made on-site resulting therefrom.

b) without the primary purpose of planting flags and footprints, NO such lunar science would have ever taken place, certainly not to the degree that it did nor at the rate that it did. To support the choice of optimum landing sites, to maximize the efficiency of the crew’s time on the Moon, etc, etc., drove—in fact, enabled—the science toward making those discoveries. Without the need to get people there in the first place for the sake of geopolitical posturing, the science may not have happened at all.

Repeat, I’m not trying to defend HSF based solely on the spin-offs and the science. But to trivialize these benefits by making up alternate possible histories that would have achieved them anyway is to deny reality. The spin-offs and science (What exactly is the value of the lives saved or improved via HSF-associated medical advances?) were genuine gravy that came along with (and because of) a ride that achieved much greater things.

Can you really assign a monetary value to the Earthrise photo that Bill Anders took from lunar orbit? How many folks did that image touch, then and since then? Yet another ‘spin-off’, whose ‘hard reality’ (the image itself) obviously might have been achieved (in fact, it had been achieved) by an unmanned probe. But would it have had the same impact, in so many ways, if a human hadn’t snapped the picture? If it hadn’t been accompanied by the Apollo 8 crew’s reading from Genesis on the Christmas Eve of such an otherwise dark year?

Of course we need to defend HSF on other grounds, and HSF isn’t always the optimum technical avenue for achieving specific goals. But don’t try to brush off the many cumulative side benefits that actually accrued from pursuing HSF by trivializing them or by suggesting alternate pathways that may or may not have achieved these substantial benefits otherwise. Doing so misrepresents reality and inserts in its place empty speculation of little value.

Physician, heal thyself.

>== Without Ares I there is no Ares V (which was the main reason
> NASA was wasting money developing it). ==

Oh please! get serious.

>== And why can’t you use a browser with a spell checker ==

not my browser, not my call.

It’s not just “not the name.” There is zero resemblance between whatever SDLV they have in mind and Ares V, other than that it’s a big rocket. Without Ares I there is no Ares V (which was the main reason NASA was wasting money developing it). There is nothing left of Constellation except Orion.

And why can’t you use a browser with a spell checker (you need one with a fact checker too, but that’s beyond the current SOA)? Don’t you want your comments to be taken seriously? Or do you just like to type?

> There is little resemblance between this bill and the POR.
> Constellation is dead.

They are keeping Orion and a exceleraetd Ares-V (though likely not the name), thats pretty close to the POR.