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	<title>Comments on: Would a human spaceflight decadal survey be useful?</title>
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		<title>By: Mark Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Craig]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 05:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This thread highlights a long overdue conversation about root causes of NASA human spaceflight (HSF) churn and instability. Critical components of eliminating HSF instability are having an effective rationale for its existence and maximizing its relevance to stakeholders. 
ïƒ¼	Rationale that is more than personal opinion and that shapes destinations and vehicles, not just communication. Rationale that is about &quot;ends&quot; not the &quot;means&quot; of destinations and vehicles;  
ïƒ¼	Relevance that is actually experienced by a critical mass of stakeholders not just claimed by NASA, and that involves much more than jobs. 

Having said this, please consider these contributions to the conversation:
ïƒ¼	Concerns about Congressional acceptance of decadal process results or its establishing decadal goals should take into account the fact that in the NASA 2011 Authorization Act Congress has done just that. See Sec. 202 Goals and Objectives.   
ïƒ¼	For the Sec. 202 Goals and Objectives, how will they be decomposed into guidance that NASA is able to implement? Some will require little or no decomposition. But other goal/objectives will require significant decomposition to give NASA a clear understanding of what to do. And, how is priority set between these goal/objectives? An external decadal process will be required to do this. Without it, NASA will be set up for failure.    
ïƒ¼	To promote relevance, members of the decadal process team should NOT generally be from the space community, but rather be thought-leaders in history, culture, science, anthropology, commerce, technology, diplomacy, entertainment, etc. People who understand who we are as America, where weâ€™ve been, and where we need to go in the future; our opportunities, challenges, and fears. People who understand why the U.S. government should risk human life to send people into space. And people who can &quot;market&quot; their conclusions to the nation and energize enthusuasm and support.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This thread highlights a long overdue conversation about root causes of NASA human spaceflight (HSF) churn and instability. Critical components of eliminating HSF instability are having an effective rationale for its existence and maximizing its relevance to stakeholders.<br />
ïƒ¼	Rationale that is more than personal opinion and that shapes destinations and vehicles, not just communication. Rationale that is about &#8220;ends&#8221; not the &#8220;means&#8221; of destinations and vehicles;<br />
ïƒ¼	Relevance that is actually experienced by a critical mass of stakeholders not just claimed by NASA, and that involves much more than jobs. </p>
<p>Having said this, please consider these contributions to the conversation:<br />
ïƒ¼	Concerns about Congressional acceptance of decadal process results or its establishing decadal goals should take into account the fact that in the NASA 2011 Authorization Act Congress has done just that. See Sec. 202 Goals and Objectives.<br />
ïƒ¼	For the Sec. 202 Goals and Objectives, how will they be decomposed into guidance that NASA is able to implement? Some will require little or no decomposition. But other goal/objectives will require significant decomposition to give NASA a clear understanding of what to do. And, how is priority set between these goal/objectives? An external decadal process will be required to do this. Without it, NASA will be set up for failure.<br />
ïƒ¼	To promote relevance, members of the decadal process team should NOT generally be from the space community, but rather be thought-leaders in history, culture, science, anthropology, commerce, technology, diplomacy, entertainment, etc. People who understand who we are as America, where weâ€™ve been, and where we need to go in the future; our opportunities, challenges, and fears. People who understand why the U.S. government should risk human life to send people into space. And people who can &#8220;market&#8221; their conclusions to the nation and energize enthusuasm and support.</p>
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		<title>By: DCSCA</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342609</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCSCA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2011 04:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342609</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, it&#039;s not- and if you&#039;re going to edit out the rationale per my earlier comment addressed to you it speaks volumes about your own poor perception of the topic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it&#8217;s not- and if you&#8217;re going to edit out the rationale per my earlier comment addressed to you it speaks volumes about your own poor perception of the topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Foust</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Foust]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Discussion of von Braun is off topic here. Thanks for your cooperation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Discussion of von Braun is off topic here. Thanks for your cooperation.</p>
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		<title>By: Monte Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Monte Davis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let&#039;s make it very simple. US papers prominently reported the discovery of Nordhausen as a V-2 factory &lt;b&gt;and&lt;/b&gt; work-&#039;em-to-death labor camp in April 1945. This link was public record via a war crimes trial in 1947:

http://www.archives.gov/research/captured-german-records/microfilm/m1079.pdf

Now, even the admiring early accounts of Our Rocketeers, e.g. Dornberger 1954 and Bergaust 1957, mention many visits by von Braun and others to Nordhausen to deal with A4 production issues. Unless you believe the place was cleaned up for them every time (&quot;Hey, Otto, you get those hanged corpses down from the traveling crane while I bring in the 7,000 well-fed, typhus-free workers&quot;) -- the &quot;hidden history&quot; has been sitting in plain sight for 60+ years. Neufeld&#039;s notes and bibliographies document this (and he took it for granted when we talked about it in 2004 or 2005).

Look: slave labor under appalling conditions ran all through German industry (not just war production) in 1943-45. Countless executives, middle managers, and foremen didn&#039;t just &quot;know about it,&quot; but worked with it every day. Because the Cold War made it strategically as well as economically important to get West Germany up and running, only a symbolic handful were ever prosecuted. The only thing that sets von Braun &amp; co. apart is that they subsequently became American heroes, especially to space fans. That required a selective backstory we were all happy with... for a while.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s make it very simple. US papers prominently reported the discovery of Nordhausen as a V-2 factory <b>and</b> work-&#8216;em-to-death labor camp in April 1945. This link was public record via a war crimes trial in 1947:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.archives.gov/research/captured-german-records/microfilm/m1079.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.archives.gov/research/captured-german-records/microfilm/m1079.pdf</a></p>
<p>Now, even the admiring early accounts of Our Rocketeers, e.g. Dornberger 1954 and Bergaust 1957, mention many visits by von Braun and others to Nordhausen to deal with A4 production issues. Unless you believe the place was cleaned up for them every time (&#8220;Hey, Otto, you get those hanged corpses down from the traveling crane while I bring in the 7,000 well-fed, typhus-free workers&#8221;) &#8212; the &#8220;hidden history&#8221; has been sitting in plain sight for 60+ years. Neufeld&#8217;s notes and bibliographies document this (and he took it for granted when we talked about it in 2004 or 2005).</p>
<p>Look: slave labor under appalling conditions ran all through German industry (not just war production) in 1943-45. Countless executives, middle managers, and foremen didn&#8217;t just &#8220;know about it,&#8221; but worked with it every day. Because the Cold War made it strategically as well as economically important to get West Germany up and running, only a symbolic handful were ever prosecuted. The only thing that sets von Braun &amp; co. apart is that they subsequently became American heroes, especially to space fans. That required a selective backstory we were all happy with&#8230; for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: Manny Bergstrom</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Manny Bergstrom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2011 01:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you want a legitimate and thorough background of von Braun that reflects what is known and when it was known, then I recommend &quot;Von Braun: Dreamer of Space, Engineer of War&quot; by Michael J. Neufeld. Its really the only even handed and thorough bio that there is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want a legitimate and thorough background of von Braun that reflects what is known and when it was known, then I recommend &#8220;Von Braun: Dreamer of Space, Engineer of War&#8221; by Michael J. Neufeld. Its really the only even handed and thorough bio that there is.</p>
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		<title>By: DCSCA</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342547</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCSCA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Monte Davis wrote @ March 24th, 2011 at 11:54 am 
&quot;...little doubt that WvB and all his top aides could not not have known the worst about the Mittelwerk and Dora.&quot;  

A postscript- FYI, Von Braun was quite canny on the topic and on the occasions it arose was careful on how he addressed it. He acknowledged the conditions were a &#039;pretty hellish environment&#039; on camera... but if you want to believe he and his team were unaware of the conditions and methods used in production of his rocket- uncharacteristic for these meticulous engineers BTW who worked years on it- then you&#039;ll find yourself in a small group. Not that it matters much in 2011. but you wont be seeing a von Braun postage stamp issued anytime soon in America.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Monte Davis wrote @ March 24th, 2011 at 11:54 am<br />
&#8220;&#8230;little doubt that WvB and all his top aides could not not have known the worst about the Mittelwerk and Dora.&#8221;  </p>
<p>A postscript- FYI, Von Braun was quite canny on the topic and on the occasions it arose was careful on how he addressed it. He acknowledged the conditions were a &#8216;pretty hellish environment&#8217; on camera&#8230; but if you want to believe he and his team were unaware of the conditions and methods used in production of his rocket- uncharacteristic for these meticulous engineers BTW who worked years on it- then you&#8217;ll find yourself in a small group. Not that it matters much in 2011. but you wont be seeing a von Braun postage stamp issued anytime soon in America.</p>
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		<title>By: DCSCA</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342546</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCSCA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bryan R wrote @ March 24th, 2011 at 7:36 am 
â€œBear in mind, Russiaâ€™s Korolev â€˜inventedâ€™ â€œmanned spaceflight,â€
&quot;Not really.&quot; Uh, yes, really. See Vostok 1/ Yuri Gagarin for details. Facts are subborn things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan R wrote @ March 24th, 2011 at 7:36 am<br />
â€œBear in mind, Russiaâ€™s Korolev â€˜inventedâ€™ â€œmanned spaceflight,â€<br />
&#8220;Not really.&#8221; Uh, yes, really. See Vostok 1/ Yuri Gagarin for details. Facts are subborn things.</p>
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		<title>By: DCSCA</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342544</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCSCA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342544</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Monte Davis wrote @ March 24th, 2011 at 11:54 am 

Inaccurrate. The extent of Von Braun&#039;s Nazi ties only began to surface after his death with respect to the American public-- and its an ugly story.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monte Davis wrote @ March 24th, 2011 at 11:54 am </p>
<p>Inaccurrate. The extent of Von Braun&#8217;s Nazi ties only began to surface after his death with respect to the American public&#8211; and its an ugly story.</p>
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		<title>By: Das Boese</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342535</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Das Boese]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 20:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[amightywind wrote @ March 23rd, 2011 at 6:29 pm

&lt;cite&gt;Europe is sitting there with the Ariane launcher suited to anyoneâ€™s spacecraft.&lt;/cite&gt;

And what spacecraft, aside from the ATV, would that be?
And why would the US, who clearly are not comfortable relying on Russia, suddenly rely on Europe? Why would any other spacefaring nation, most of which have their own LVs?

&lt;cite&gt;Their inaction is sad and inexplicable.&lt;/cite&gt;

It&#039;s perfectly explicable if you have basic knowledge of Ariane 5 and how ESA works.

&lt;cite&gt;I hope the US doesnâ€™t get tied down again by international commitments.&lt;/cite&gt;

You&#039;re doing fine getting tied down into unsustainable projects all by yourself, or so it seems.
I hope the international spaceflight community (including America&#039;s) doesn&#039;t get shafted by US partisan politics.

&lt;cite&gt;ISS is a bloody disaster.&lt;/cite&gt;

Constellation was a &quot;bloody disaster&quot;.
It&#039;s too early to say if ISS will be a success, but it has at least produced tangible results even at less than full operational capacity.

&lt;cite&gt;We shouldnâ€™t even come to the table before the SLV is launched.&lt;/cite&gt;
That seat will remain empty for a long time, then.

I&#039;m amazed though, I never pictured Windy as a fan of Ariane 5. Of course, it could be that that is only the case since ATK showed interest in the Vulcain engine.

Fun fact: My space propulsion class has an excursion to the DLR Lampoldshausen test facility planned for May, hopefully we&#039;ll be allowed to take a look at Vinci :D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amightywind wrote @ March 23rd, 2011 at 6:29 pm</p>
<p><cite>Europe is sitting there with the Ariane launcher suited to anyoneâ€™s spacecraft.</cite></p>
<p>And what spacecraft, aside from the ATV, would that be?<br />
And why would the US, who clearly are not comfortable relying on Russia, suddenly rely on Europe? Why would any other spacefaring nation, most of which have their own LVs?</p>
<p><cite>Their inaction is sad and inexplicable.</cite></p>
<p>It&#8217;s perfectly explicable if you have basic knowledge of Ariane 5 and how ESA works.</p>
<p><cite>I hope the US doesnâ€™t get tied down again by international commitments.</cite></p>
<p>You&#8217;re doing fine getting tied down into unsustainable projects all by yourself, or so it seems.<br />
I hope the international spaceflight community (including America&#8217;s) doesn&#8217;t get shafted by US partisan politics.</p>
<p><cite>ISS is a bloody disaster.</cite></p>
<p>Constellation was a &#8220;bloody disaster&#8221;.<br />
It&#8217;s too early to say if ISS will be a success, but it has at least produced tangible results even at less than full operational capacity.</p>
<p><cite>We shouldnâ€™t even come to the table before the SLV is launched.</cite><br />
That seat will remain empty for a long time, then.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m amazed though, I never pictured Windy as a fan of Ariane 5. Of course, it could be that that is only the case since ATK showed interest in the Vulcain engine.</p>
<p>Fun fact: My space propulsion class has an excursion to the DLR Lampoldshausen test facility planned for May, hopefully we&#8217;ll be allowed to take a look at Vinci <img src="http://www.spacepolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel WHITE-CHIEF Shaddox</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/03/23/would-a-human-spaceflight-decadal-survey-be-useful/#comment-342534</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel WHITE-CHIEF Shaddox]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 20:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4545#comment-342534</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If we may, I would like to throw Our hat into the ring, as the Tribe is fast
at work, trying to develop the PNW (Pacific Northwest) SPACEPORT.  And
we would hope to praticipate in any Program to support manned Spaceflight.  (See at Our Website.)

And, if you want some more technical details, see Our associated ZDK Institue (www.veldantia.com/zdki).

Keep us Posted on what happens!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we may, I would like to throw Our hat into the ring, as the Tribe is fast<br />
at work, trying to develop the PNW (Pacific Northwest) SPACEPORT.  And<br />
we would hope to praticipate in any Program to support manned Spaceflight.  (See at Our Website.)</p>
<p>And, if you want some more technical details, see Our associated ZDK Institue (www.veldantia.com/zdki).</p>
<p>Keep us Posted on what happens!</p>
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