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	<title>Comments on: American students speak; European policy developments</title>
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		<title>By: DCSCA</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343495</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCSCA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 05:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ben Russell-Gough wrote @ April 5th, 2011 at 11:54 am 
ROFLMAO SpaceX is very good at announcing everything yet never flying anybody. It&#039;s a ticket to no place. Branson is on the right track for this era. Musk is a waste of time and capital investment-- as the capital markets have shown.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben Russell-Gough wrote @ April 5th, 2011 at 11:54 am<br />
ROFLMAO SpaceX is very good at announcing everything yet never flying anybody. It&#8217;s a ticket to no place. Branson is on the right track for this era. Musk is a waste of time and capital investment&#8211; as the capital markets have shown.</p>
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		<title>By: Beancounter from Downunder</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beancounter from Downunder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Apr 2011 01:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;E.P. Grondine wrote @ April 5th, 2011 at 8:52 pm 
50 Tons will do nicely, and with the economies of scaleâ€¦

The only questions left are the reliability of the Merlin 1 engine, and the engine out capabilities of the Falcon 9.&quot;

So, SpaceX have flown what, 6 variants of the Merlin of which 4 have made it to orbit so far.  This amounts to 22 engines flight tested (sorry, 1 was actually commercial customer F1 Flight 5).  Not to mention all the static firings they&#039;ve done both on the pad and at McGregor.  
Not one failure so far.  If you&#039;re engines reliable, no engine-out capability needed.  
In addition to that, on F9 flights, SpaceX deliberately shut down 2 engines at MECO1 prior full stage one MECO2 shutdown.  Seemingly excellent control of their engine systems.  So all in all, evidence indicates a pretty reliable power plant to me.

Further, it&#039;s clear that SpaceX have a talented in-house engine design, testing and manufacturing team in place.  They&#039;ve started with a relatively simple design which they continue to improve.  I would say that in the liquids engine area, they currently have the most expertise of any commercial or government organisation in the U.S.  And they also have staff with liquid hydrogen experience and a existing engine design licence if they want to explore that route which I reckon they already have.

Questions answered.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;E.P. Grondine wrote @ April 5th, 2011 at 8:52 pm<br />
50 Tons will do nicely, and with the economies of scaleâ€¦</p>
<p>The only questions left are the reliability of the Merlin 1 engine, and the engine out capabilities of the Falcon 9.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, SpaceX have flown what, 6 variants of the Merlin of which 4 have made it to orbit so far.  This amounts to 22 engines flight tested (sorry, 1 was actually commercial customer F1 Flight 5).  Not to mention all the static firings they&#8217;ve done both on the pad and at McGregor.<br />
Not one failure so far.  If you&#8217;re engines reliable, no engine-out capability needed.<br />
In addition to that, on F9 flights, SpaceX deliberately shut down 2 engines at MECO1 prior full stage one MECO2 shutdown.  Seemingly excellent control of their engine systems.  So all in all, evidence indicates a pretty reliable power plant to me.</p>
<p>Further, it&#8217;s clear that SpaceX have a talented in-house engine design, testing and manufacturing team in place.  They&#8217;ve started with a relatively simple design which they continue to improve.  I would say that in the liquids engine area, they currently have the most expertise of any commercial or government organisation in the U.S.  And they also have staff with liquid hydrogen experience and a existing engine design licence if they want to explore that route which I reckon they already have.</p>
<p>Questions answered.</p>
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		<title>By: Beancounter from Downunder</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343424</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beancounter from Downunder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Apr 2011 01:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot; Ben Russell-Gough wrote @ April 6th, 2011 at 4:01 am 

As will the first flight of Falcon-9, Musk will probably end up having to kludge together some kind of simulator payload. However, if it is proven to fly without significant issues, then we can expect things to start happening.&#039;

You&#039;ve missed the point and the whole SpaceX operating philosophy, they plan and test, they don&#039;t kludge.  Even when things don&#039;t go quite right (eg. MVac skirt issue) they still planned a way forward.  The simulator payload was certainly not &#039;kludge&#039;.  It was always planned to fly and was jam packed with instrumentation to provide a bunch of flight data for their COTS-C Demo1 flight. 
Wrt FH, still wouldn&#039;t be surprised to see a customer for the 1st flight anyway.  Since there&#039;ll be a number of F9/Dragon flights before that which will demonstrate ongoing soundness of SpaceX designs and systems.

And please, don&#039;t anyone start with the &#039;old technology&#039; rant.  The FH will demonstrate several innovative technologies such as cross-feed tanking and they continue to develop their Merlin capabilities to M1D such as their in-house upgraded turbo-pumps.  In fact, it&#039;s an evolved version of the F9.
In addition, due to the capabilities of the cross-feed arrangements (which are designed to be turned off if required), the 2 strap-ons may survive for reuse due to the lower altitude on release.  That would be very well done indeed if it works.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Ben Russell-Gough wrote @ April 6th, 2011 at 4:01 am </p>
<p>As will the first flight of Falcon-9, Musk will probably end up having to kludge together some kind of simulator payload. However, if it is proven to fly without significant issues, then we can expect things to start happening.&#8217;</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve missed the point and the whole SpaceX operating philosophy, they plan and test, they don&#8217;t kludge.  Even when things don&#8217;t go quite right (eg. MVac skirt issue) they still planned a way forward.  The simulator payload was certainly not &#8216;kludge&#8217;.  It was always planned to fly and was jam packed with instrumentation to provide a bunch of flight data for their COTS-C Demo1 flight.<br />
Wrt FH, still wouldn&#8217;t be surprised to see a customer for the 1st flight anyway.  Since there&#8217;ll be a number of F9/Dragon flights before that which will demonstrate ongoing soundness of SpaceX designs and systems.</p>
<p>And please, don&#8217;t anyone start with the &#8216;old technology&#8217; rant.  The FH will demonstrate several innovative technologies such as cross-feed tanking and they continue to develop their Merlin capabilities to M1D such as their in-house upgraded turbo-pumps.  In fact, it&#8217;s an evolved version of the F9.<br />
In addition, due to the capabilities of the cross-feed arrangements (which are designed to be turned off if required), the 2 strap-ons may survive for reuse due to the lower altitude on release.  That would be very well done indeed if it works.</p>
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		<title>By: Googaw</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343403</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Googaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 19:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Jefferson was able to put through the National Road &lt;/i&gt;

This was a postal road and came under the Constitutional postal power.    The stated purpose of these roads was to expedite delivery of the federal mails.  Canals and observatories, however, for most Congresscritters went too far beyond any enumerated federal powers as they understood them back in first few decades after the Constitution was ratified.

So unless federal rockets are delivering warheads or snail mail, their justification under originalism is problematic.   Thus sayeth my Tea Party friends who have studied such matters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Jefferson was able to put through the National Road </i></p>
<p>This was a postal road and came under the Constitutional postal power.    The stated purpose of these roads was to expedite delivery of the federal mails.  Canals and observatories, however, for most Congresscritters went too far beyond any enumerated federal powers as they understood them back in first few decades after the Constitution was ratified.</p>
<p>So unless federal rockets are delivering warheads or snail mail, their justification under originalism is problematic.   Thus sayeth my Tea Party friends who have studied such matters.</p>
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		<title>By: Coastal Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343402</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Coastal Ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 19:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343402</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[amightywind wrote @ April 6th, 2011 at 8:30 am

&quot;&lt;i&gt;Boeing, Lockmart, and Orbital have to maintain an ROI that appeals to shareholders.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

True, but that has nothing to do with what they charge, and how innovative they aren&#039;t.  In fact one of the things that shareholders look at is how well the CEO&#039;s are doing at staying competitive, and right now they aren&#039;t looking so good.  How do you explain to your shareholders that a new competitor is able to offer the same service for 1/6 of the price that you can?  ULA management is pretty uncomfortable right now...

&quot;&lt;i&gt;SpaceX is burning Muskâ€™s own cash in an effort to enter the market.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Nope.  If that were true, then the company would be belly up fairly quickly, but they are not.  They have been profitable for the past couple of years, and they project that they will continue to be profitable.  But they are plowing those profits back into their new products and services, which is how you take over the competition:

â€œ&lt;i&gt;Thereâ€™s no point in matching the competition,â€ Musk said. â€œWe want to steamroll them. Weâ€™re trying to make this a complete no-brainer.&lt;/i&gt;â€

The lack of innovation in the launch market is what gave SpaceX their opening, and they are taking over marketshare the old fashioned way, by offering better service for a better price.  Now we just need to get Boeing and Lockheed Martin to invest money in ULA so they can lower their costs and stay competitive.  Or, maybe they will decide to exist the business?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amightywind wrote @ April 6th, 2011 at 8:30 am</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Boeing, Lockmart, and Orbital have to maintain an ROI that appeals to shareholders.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>True, but that has nothing to do with what they charge, and how innovative they aren&#8217;t.  In fact one of the things that shareholders look at is how well the CEO&#8217;s are doing at staying competitive, and right now they aren&#8217;t looking so good.  How do you explain to your shareholders that a new competitor is able to offer the same service for 1/6 of the price that you can?  ULA management is pretty uncomfortable right now&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>SpaceX is burning Muskâ€™s own cash in an effort to enter the market.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Nope.  If that were true, then the company would be belly up fairly quickly, but they are not.  They have been profitable for the past couple of years, and they project that they will continue to be profitable.  But they are plowing those profits back into their new products and services, which is how you take over the competition:</p>
<p>â€œ<i>Thereâ€™s no point in matching the competition,â€ Musk said. â€œWe want to steamroll them. Weâ€™re trying to make this a complete no-brainer.</i>â€</p>
<p>The lack of innovation in the launch market is what gave SpaceX their opening, and they are taking over marketshare the old fashioned way, by offering better service for a better price.  Now we just need to get Boeing and Lockheed Martin to invest money in ULA so they can lower their costs and stay competitive.  Or, maybe they will decide to exist the business?</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 16:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Bennett wrote @ April 5th, 2011 at 6:35 pm

&quot;I think they were going for the reference to Franceâ€™s aid to the Revolutionary Army in order to help secure â€œlibertyâ€ for the colonialsâ€¦&quot;

Are you actually saying on this forum that France actually helped the formation of the United States of America???? Okay it&#039;s way back when but still. What about our special relationship with the UK? What happened to that one? You know the French people, well you know, they speak french! Can&#039;t trust them now can you? And they told us it was a bad idea to go to Iraq. 

Anyhow. It&#039;s good to see good ol&#039; subtle diplomacy at work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Bennett wrote @ April 5th, 2011 at 6:35 pm</p>
<p>&#8220;I think they were going for the reference to Franceâ€™s aid to the Revolutionary Army in order to help secure â€œlibertyâ€ for the colonialsâ€¦&#8221;</p>
<p>Are you actually saying on this forum that France actually helped the formation of the United States of America???? Okay it&#8217;s way back when but still. What about our special relationship with the UK? What happened to that one? You know the French people, well you know, they speak french! Can&#8217;t trust them now can you? And they told us it was a bad idea to go to Iraq. </p>
<p>Anyhow. It&#8217;s good to see good ol&#8217; subtle diplomacy at work.</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 16:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah and as a side note that I find somewhat funny. If DARPA and USAF are customers of SpaceX, does that mean that SpaceX is part of our National Security apparatus??? Unlike NASA... 

I say this is real funny, don&#039;t y&#039;all think?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah and as a side note that I find somewhat funny. If DARPA and USAF are customers of SpaceX, does that mean that SpaceX is part of our National Security apparatus??? Unlike NASA&#8230; </p>
<p>I say this is real funny, don&#8217;t y&#8217;all think?</p>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343377</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 16:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[amightywind... Some time it feels like reason gets to you and then it evades you very quickly. Alright I am going to help a little. Read these links below and try to understand what this means. Look at the date. Look at the customers. Now think real hard. What are the customers SpaceX are REALLY after? Who are those guys and why? NASA? NASA is a nice thing to have, it is a nice excuse to fulfill Elon&#039;s desire to explore space. BUT the market is NOT NASA. Again think. Think real hard.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/87838/spacex_selected_for_responsive_space_launch_demonstration_under_darpa_falcon/

&quot;Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 2004, 06:00 CDT

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Sept. 21 /PRNewswire/ -- Space Exploration Technologies Corporation (SpaceX) has been awarded $8M by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and U.S. Air Force to demonstrate highly responsive, affordable launch capability. This supports broader interest by the Defense Department and Air Force in a launch capability that can rapidly add satellite coverage when needed.&quot;

Try this one too...

http://www.space.com/2751-elon-musk-spacex-rocket-plans-outlined.html

&quot;The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is the primary launch customer, Musk said, with the NASA payloads chosen by DARPA.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amightywind&#8230; Some time it feels like reason gets to you and then it evades you very quickly. Alright I am going to help a little. Read these links below and try to understand what this means. Look at the date. Look at the customers. Now think real hard. What are the customers SpaceX are REALLY after? Who are those guys and why? NASA? NASA is a nice thing to have, it is a nice excuse to fulfill Elon&#8217;s desire to explore space. BUT the market is NOT NASA. Again think. Think real hard.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/87838/spacex_selected_for_responsive_space_launch_demonstration_under_darpa_falcon/" rel="nofollow">http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/87838/spacex_selected_for_responsive_space_launch_demonstration_under_darpa_falcon/</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 2004, 06:00 CDT</p>
<p>EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Sept. 21 /PRNewswire/ &#8212; Space Exploration Technologies Corporation (SpaceX) has been awarded $8M by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and U.S. Air Force to demonstrate highly responsive, affordable launch capability. This supports broader interest by the Defense Department and Air Force in a launch capability that can rapidly add satellite coverage when needed.&#8221;</p>
<p>Try this one too&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.space.com/2751-elon-musk-spacex-rocket-plans-outlined.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.space.com/2751-elon-musk-spacex-rocket-plans-outlined.html</a></p>
<p>&#8220;The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is the primary launch customer, Musk said, with the NASA payloads chosen by DARPA.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343366</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343366</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;...simulator payload.&quot;

&quot;This is one thing SpaceX actually has experience with.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Versus Ares 1X and all the &quot;real&quot; rocket and payload parts that never made it close to orbit?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Thanks for the laugh.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;simulator payload.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;This is one thing SpaceX actually has experience with.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Versus Ares 1X and all the &#8220;real&#8221; rocket and payload parts that never made it close to orbit?</p>
<p>HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!</p>
<p>Thanks for the laugh.</p>
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		<title>By: amightywind</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/04/01/american-students-speak-european-policy-developments/#comment-343365</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[amightywind]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=4584#comment-343365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;cite&gt;ATKâ€™s per launch cost for Liberty doesnâ€™t even come close.&lt;/cite&gt;

You have no idea what the real costs of the Falcon 9. Boeing, Lockmart, and Orbital have to maintain an ROI that appeals to shareholders. SpaceX is burning Musk&#039;s own cash in an effort to enter the market. Hey, its his prerogative, but please don&#039;t buy the line that SpaceX has miraculously halved the costs of space launch.

&lt;cite&gt;As will the first flight of Falcon-9, Musk will probably end up having to kludge together some kind of simulator payload.&lt;/cite&gt;

This is one thing SpaceX actually has experience with.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><cite>ATKâ€™s per launch cost for Liberty doesnâ€™t even come close.</cite></p>
<p>You have no idea what the real costs of the Falcon 9. Boeing, Lockmart, and Orbital have to maintain an ROI that appeals to shareholders. SpaceX is burning Musk&#8217;s own cash in an effort to enter the market. Hey, its his prerogative, but please don&#8217;t buy the line that SpaceX has miraculously halved the costs of space launch.</p>
<p><cite>As will the first flight of Falcon-9, Musk will probably end up having to kludge together some kind of simulator payload.</cite></p>
<p>This is one thing SpaceX actually has experience with.</p>
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