I think you had it right first when you said they do not know how to sell HSF other than for national security. It’s a total lack of imagination. It’s also that HSF is not that important so you do not get the best and brightest at the helm. Who in his right mind would seek a seat in Congress to discuss the NASA budget and policies? It is not, far from it, where THE power lies in Congress. So we have what we have. A strong disconnect with those who work the jig of whom we ask to have PhDs and the likes and those who control the purse who cannot subtract $61B from $1.4T to see the fraud this really is. Such is life. However, I would argue again that it is our job to try and frame HSF for what it really is. But as mentioned earlier there are so many PhDs and other “rocket scientists” in this field with so many egos to deal with that we are far from unity.

“The major threats right now to our nation are economic and not military. ”

Absolutely right. And today you do not need an army to put a country to their knees. The flip of key on a regular computer can do that for you. And btw we live every day the economic consequences of 9/11, possibly even worse than its military consequences which are only some part of the overall economic fiasco. The people who fomented 9/11 most likely knew that we would stupidly embark in at least one war thereby draining treasure and blood. All of that with box cutters. Not with super stealth fighter aircraft. Smarts will always defeat force. It is sad we have to learn this every so often. And btw all this technology you are talking about is actually spreading to countries that did not have it before rather quickly now. Engineering is not the sole privilege of a few western countries. In times of trouble we, like any one else, will sell technology we would not otherwise for a buck or two. The real military high ground today is probably related to human intelligence and counter intelligence, information and disinformation. For example thanks to our friend the Internet you can quickly spread disinformation that will affect far more people and upset their thinking one way or the other much more efficiently than with a F-22. And by the time people realize it was a military move it’s too late. It’s just the new form of sending propaganda pamphlets over the enemy territory.

“The best ones (species protection and expansion) are ones that NASA won’t touch with a ten foot pole.”

Of course they won’t!!! Have you read the advocates of “species protection” and “expansion” here and elsewhere? There reasoning is quite scary. Now if we had a real grand plan I think it would start with Earth sciences, climatology and others that affect our planet with adapted mitigation plans. In the big picture you’d had impact observation, prevention, protection and mitigation. Finally you’d have species expansion as a last resource if we cannot do anything to protect our environment in which we actually live you know. Making sure that those obtuse enough to politicize the subject don’t forget that without a well balanced environment our species will just go. Period. Earth will for sure stay and reboot but we’ll be a nice case in stupidity for the future archaeologists…

Any way.

We’re in complete agreement here, and on 95% of the rest. I do, however, think that the congressional picture of human space flight involves a large dollop of power projection, which they translate as national security. That’s either in their hearts, or in whatever few brain cells they have that are functional. There are few in Congress who speak of human space flight without referring either directly or indirectly to national security. This is, in many respects, a reflection of the confusion about what “exploration” really means.

That there is no confrontation that is going on to prove anything to nations that threaten us is probably right. But there is a lot going on to nations that would like to see themselves as threatening us. The major threats right now to our nation are economic and not military. In some strange way, military expressions of technological competence can represent economic virility. That is, hey, a nation that can figure out how to operate drones and cruise missles is one that has a lot of technological potential for an advanced economy.

That there is no intelligible argument for HSF is exactly right. It pains me to say that, but I’m afraid it’s true. The best ones (species protection and expansion) are ones that NASA won’t touch with a ten foot pole.That’s a challenge that our nation doesn’t really want to step up to.

Great comment!

“Well, you have to use these technologies in nonglobal confrontations to prove to nations that might really threaten our country that these technologies work. ”

Do you? Why? As you pointed out with MAD no one, so far, has tried to challenge us on that regard? Why is that? There are simplistically two kinds of threats as I see it today: 1. The old Cold War type between two or more nations and 2. The guerilla type such as 9/11. In either case there is no confrontation that is going to prove anything to nations that threaten us. Nothing.

“They can’t think of any other way to justify it, and use national defense as a taxpayer-digestible excuse for dropping piles of cash in their districts.”

Well that does not mean they think of NASA as National Security in their hearts. It only means “They can’t think of any other way to justify it”. Remember that fear is the strongest motivator of all to get anything. Congress has relied on fear for anything. Not just Congress mind you but every one in politics, save maybe for President Obama whose message was then of hope, not that we had to fear every one on this planet and elsewhere.

“In the broadest sense, “inspiration” can be considered a tool for soft power. We want to “inspire” kids so they can grow up to master fancy technologies that are directly needed for national defense.”

Boy you’re stretching a bit now… I would say National Security not Defense. Indeed a lot of things can be put under the umbrella of national security that has no military application, e.g. Wall Street well being (and it hurts to say it).

“The word “exploration” is a slippery one, but it connotes challenge and conquest.”

Well exploration has not been well defined because those who speak about it don’t really understand it. For example in its basic form science is exploration. There is a multitude of definition for exploration. But I think that if you tie it with national security it is a big mistake. National security and exploration together? Nah. The very thinly stretched argument is that about He3 on the Moon and China or whoever and it does not hold water if I may.

I think that survival and to a lesser extent expansion of the species is a much better argument to be made and then possibly resources exploitation for a government endeavor. But that’s about it. And without a direct known threat to our species there is little chance that this argument convinces any one, regardless whether it is in the Space Act. Prevention would be a lot less expensive and a lot more effective than HSF. All in all there is no intelligible argument for HSF, none. The little hope is that with ISS and possibly Bigelow we can commence a new era of commercial services delivery to LEO. Then if all works out well maybe we’ll start exploring outside of LEO. But it won’t be tomorrow. Maybe not even the day after tomorrow. We’ll see how CCdev works out first.

Well, you have to use these technologies in nonglobal confrontations to prove to nations that might really threaten our country that these technologies work. I should note that we have a huge investment in ICBMs that have never been used. In the spirit of MAD, those are instruments to scare the $%^&*@ out of people who might want to make war.

I’m not suggesting that this is what human space flight should be about. But the words that emit from many of our ideologically moronic congressional leaders strongly suggest that they believe, in their hearts, that human spaceflight is essential to national defense. They can’t think of any other way to justify it, and use national defense as a taxpayer-digestible excuse for dropping piles of cash in their districts.

In the broadest sense, “inspiration” can be considered a tool for soft power. We want to “inspire” kids so they can grow up to master fancy technologies that are directly needed for national defense. The word “exploration” is a slippery one, but it connotes challenge and conquest.

“In many respects, that’s a hallmark of DOD enterprises. We don’t build high technology military stuff as much to make war as to scare the $%^&*@ out of people who might want to make war.”

I beg to differ. We are in multiple wars at this time and have been for most of the 20th Century on to today.

“LOL. With regard to human spaceflight, I’m waiting …”

With any regard… I know. Just venting.

Unfortunately, from a Congressional perspective, that’s true, whether or not it is supposed to be true or if we want it to be true. To Congress, human spaceflight is not about exploration in the interest of discovery. It’s about exploration in the interest of showing up other nations (perhaps by pretending to do it in the interest of discovery), or at least exercising technological superiority over them. In many respects, that’s a hallmark of DOD enterprises. We don’t build high technology military stuff as much to make war as to scare the $%^&*@ out of people who might want to make war.

“If Congress is a bunch of ideological morons then they have to go.”

LOL. With regard to human spaceflight, I’m waiting …

Heh-heh, yeah I’m sure, lol.

Until they prove they can save the taxpayer a real buck by cost-cutting the world expanding Pentagon, not just granny’s social security and medicare, they’re just a garden variety Empire-lovin’ neo-con.

Only more rabid.

“While I am loath to agree with Windy, his parody has the finger on the pulse of the neo-con mind-set in Congress, i.e., NASA’s main job is HSF and the projection of “soft power.” It doesn’t matter if we know better or not.”

Ah come on dad2059! You cannot just give up like that. If Congress is a bunch of ideological morons then they have to go. And we have to expose them for what they are. Can you imagine amightywind Speaker of the House??? On the other hand it would tell me it is time to finally retire to a nice tropical place.

“The thing is, the Congress-critters are strangling the SLS/MPCV in their respective cribs playing political game-bed bingo. Amusing.”

Yeah but it is an expensive game while others are in needs, real needs.

“And this Aerospace Commercial Study, that is the real “Kabuki Theater.” LOL ”

This study is not that important. They could come out and say it’ll cost $100B it would still be less expensive than Constellation. The only thing that might do some damage is if they had stated it would cost more than Constellation. Now can they do that? Nah. Too late they already gave their opinion on Constellation and it was not sustainable… And it would possibly kill all HSF since nothing would be sustainable.

It is not that now, and has never been. To imagine it is is a fantasy.