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	<title>Comments on: Thanksgiving leftovers</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358184</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 18:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358184</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Bennett wrote @ November 30th, 2011 at 7:55 pm

&quot;You da man.&quot;

I know, I know.

Nonetheless the acknowledgment is welcome. Sweet music to my hears.

;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bennett wrote @ November 30th, 2011 at 7:55 pm</p>
<p>&#8220;You da man.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know, I know.</p>
<p>Nonetheless the acknowledgment is welcome. Sweet music to my hears.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.spacepolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Coastal Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358183</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Coastal Ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 17:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris Castro wrote @ December 1st, 2011 at 5:28 am

&quot;&lt;i&gt;The numbers &amp; figures he gives, that purportedly makes the SLS heavy-lift vehicle unsustainable are pure sensationalism!&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

OK, then it should be pretty easy for you to refute.

How much will the SLS cost to launch a pound of payload to LEO?

I&#039;ll take silence to mean that you don&#039;t have a clue, which won&#039;t surprise many of us...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris Castro wrote @ December 1st, 2011 at 5:28 am</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>The numbers &amp; figures he gives, that purportedly makes the SLS heavy-lift vehicle unsustainable are pure sensationalism!</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>OK, then it should be pretty easy for you to refute.</p>
<p>How much will the SLS cost to launch a pound of payload to LEO?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll take silence to mean that you don&#8217;t have a clue, which won&#8217;t surprise many of us&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Boozer</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358177</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Boozer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops! I meant to say,
&quot;So there is some pretty hard evidence that SLS development costs will be much more than a commercially &lt;i&gt;designed and developed&lt;/i&gt; equivalent.&quot;
Rather than,
&quot;So there is some pretty hard evidence that SLS development costs will be much more than a commercially made equivalent.&quot;

Even SLS will be commercially &lt;i&gt;made&lt;/i&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops! I meant to say,<br />
&#8220;So there is some pretty hard evidence that SLS development costs will be much more than a commercially <i>designed and developed</i> equivalent.&#8221;<br />
Rather than,<br />
&#8220;So there is some pretty hard evidence that SLS development costs will be much more than a commercially made equivalent.&#8221;</p>
<p>Even SLS will be commercially <i>made</i>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rick Boozer</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358176</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rick Boozer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358176</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Chris Castro
&lt;i&gt;&quot;The author is a microcosm of the petty, flawed, limited, short-term thinking that is the Flexible Path/Commercial Space movement.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
A proverb you should look up: about a pot and kettle and their respective colors.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;The numbers &amp; figures he gives, that purportedly makes the SLS heavy-lift vehicle unsustainable are pure sensationalism!!! WHY would the commercial entrepreneurs have an easy-street time at building a similar rocket?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;b&gt;WHY?&lt;/b&gt;  For the same reason a study conducted by the Air Force and NASA &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;together&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; concluded that if Falcon 9 had been developed using traditional NASA methods, it would have cost many times more than was spent by SpaceX.  BTW, the independent Booz-Allen group reported that SLS can only stay in budget a few years before its costs blow up unsustainably.  So there is some pretty hard evidence that SLS development costs will be &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;much&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; more than a commercially made equivalent.
Here&#039;s the relevant NASA document that discusses how much more expensive their methods are for producing launchers than going about it the new goal-oriented fixed-price way that is being used with COTS and Commercial Crew:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/586023main_8-3-11_NAFCOM.pdf

So it is &lt;b&gt;YOU&lt;/b&gt; who are guilty of &lt;i&gt;&quot;sensationalism&quot;&lt;/i&gt;.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Whatâ€”Flexible Path/Commercial Space wants the immediate end of the governmental space program, just so that their amateurish dreams of launching rockets out of their backyards can commence?!?!&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
More irrational hysteria.  What people on our side want is for the money wasted on SLS to be used by NASA to develop the more technologically cutting-edge manned deep spacecraft and depots that would be assembled from materials lofted by commercial launchers.  Thus the expensive 1970&#039;s era technology of the SLS is actually &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;preventing&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; exploration beyond low Earth orbit; especially, since it would cost much more than an equivalent commercially made HLV launcher or several smaller rockets doing the same job piecemeal.

All of this has been pointed out to you over and over again.

Grow up, Chris.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chris Castro<br />
<i>&#8220;The author is a microcosm of the petty, flawed, limited, short-term thinking that is the Flexible Path/Commercial Space movement.&#8221;</i><br />
A proverb you should look up: about a pot and kettle and their respective colors.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The numbers &amp; figures he gives, that purportedly makes the SLS heavy-lift vehicle unsustainable are pure sensationalism!!! WHY would the commercial entrepreneurs have an easy-street time at building a similar rocket?&#8221;</i></p>
<p><b>WHY?</b>  For the same reason a study conducted by the Air Force and NASA <b><i>together</i></b> concluded that if Falcon 9 had been developed using traditional NASA methods, it would have cost many times more than was spent by SpaceX.  BTW, the independent Booz-Allen group reported that SLS can only stay in budget a few years before its costs blow up unsustainably.  So there is some pretty hard evidence that SLS development costs will be <b><i>much</i></b> more than a commercially made equivalent.<br />
Here&#8217;s the relevant NASA document that discusses how much more expensive their methods are for producing launchers than going about it the new goal-oriented fixed-price way that is being used with COTS and Commercial Crew:<br />
<a href="http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/586023main_8-3-11_NAFCOM.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/586023main_8-3-11_NAFCOM.pdf</a></p>
<p>So it is <b>YOU</b> who are guilty of <i>&#8220;sensationalism&#8221;</i>.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Whatâ€”Flexible Path/Commercial Space wants the immediate end of the governmental space program, just so that their amateurish dreams of launching rockets out of their backyards can commence?!?!&#8221;</i><br />
More irrational hysteria.  What people on our side want is for the money wasted on SLS to be used by NASA to develop the more technologically cutting-edge manned deep spacecraft and depots that would be assembled from materials lofted by commercial launchers.  Thus the expensive 1970&#8217;s era technology of the SLS is actually <b><i>preventing</i></b> exploration beyond low Earth orbit; especially, since it would cost much more than an equivalent commercially made HLV launcher or several smaller rockets doing the same job piecemeal.</p>
<p>All of this has been pointed out to you over and over again.</p>
<p>Grow up, Chris.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Kugler</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358175</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin Kugler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358175</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Castro,
Commercial entrepreneurs aren&#039;t trying to build a similar rocket.  They&#039;re trying to build rockets that meet the demand from both private and government customers.  That is the difference between them and SLS.  SLS is being built to satisfy Congressional demands, not mission requirements.

Besides, why should we, as a nation, place ourselves into such a helpless dependency on a single heavy lift system?  What happens to the space program if there is an SLS failure akin to the Shuttle tragedies or the Soyuz/Progress loss?  

The commercial side is not asking for &quot;ALL of the federal budget dollars.&quot;  That, sir, is &quot;pure sensationalism.&quot;  They are asking for sufficient funding to compete and provide NASA the desired services in a timely manner.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

Your position is entirely predicated on hyperbole and strawman arguments.  The whole point behind buying commercial services for LEO access to reduce NASA spaceflight operations costs so that it can afford to spend more of its money on BEO missions and mission systems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Castro,<br />
Commercial entrepreneurs aren&#8217;t trying to build a similar rocket.  They&#8217;re trying to build rockets that meet the demand from both private and government customers.  That is the difference between them and SLS.  SLS is being built to satisfy Congressional demands, not mission requirements.</p>
<p>Besides, why should we, as a nation, place ourselves into such a helpless dependency on a single heavy lift system?  What happens to the space program if there is an SLS failure akin to the Shuttle tragedies or the Soyuz/Progress loss?  </p>
<p>The commercial side is not asking for &#8220;ALL of the federal budget dollars.&#8221;  That, sir, is &#8220;pure sensationalism.&#8221;  They are asking for sufficient funding to compete and provide NASA the desired services in a timely manner.  Nothing more, nothing less.  </p>
<p>Your position is entirely predicated on hyperbole and strawman arguments.  The whole point behind buying commercial services for LEO access to reduce NASA spaceflight operations costs so that it can afford to spend more of its money on BEO missions and mission systems.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: GuessWho</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358171</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GuessWho]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bennet wrote - :&quot;Yeah yeah, sure sure, IF it was leaking in a direction that enhanced the existing spin (not that one could pick that up from the few seconds of flight video after SECO). First it was â€œcorkscrewingâ€ and now itâ€™s â€œincreasing rate of spinâ€â€¦&quot;

You mean like a thruster valve seat that was leaking because it experienced flight temperatures well below its qualified AFT&#039;s?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennet wrote &#8211; :&#8221;Yeah yeah, sure sure, IF it was leaking in a direction that enhanced the existing spin (not that one could pick that up from the few seconds of flight video after SECO). First it was â€œcorkscrewingâ€ and now itâ€™s â€œincreasing rate of spinâ€â€¦&#8221;</p>
<p>You mean like a thruster valve seat that was leaking because it experienced flight temperatures well below its qualified AFT&#8217;s?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris Castro</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358170</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Castro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 10:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Did any of you out there, read the new article in the Space Review web-site, trying hard with bogus arguments, to refute the need for a U.S. non-commercial Heavy-Lift rocket?? The author is a microcosm of the petty, flawed, limited, short-term thinking that is the Flexible Path/Commercial Space movement. The numbers &amp; figures he gives, that purportedly makes the SLS heavy-lift vehicle unsustainable are pure sensationalism!!! WHY would the commercial entrepreneurs have an easy-street time at building a similar rocket? Plus, WHY should we as a nation, place ourselves into such a helpless dependency on these commercial firms for much-later-on building one? To me, it appears to be a case of the commercial side whining over not being handed over ALL of the federal budget dollars----right away, and without delay, nor deliberation. Again, I tell you all: THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO LEAD THE WAY, with this. No commercial entity is ready, nor up to the task of renewing American manned spaceflight! The current Administration&#039;s plan of heavily subsidizing these companies &amp; granting them exclusiveness &amp; priviledge with regard to launching ANY future astronauts for the rest of this decade, strikes me as the biggest folly ever devised!! What---Flexible Path/Commercial Space wants the immediate end of the governmental space program, just so that their amateurish dreams of launching rockets out of their backyards can commence?!?!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did any of you out there, read the new article in the Space Review web-site, trying hard with bogus arguments, to refute the need for a U.S. non-commercial Heavy-Lift rocket?? The author is a microcosm of the petty, flawed, limited, short-term thinking that is the Flexible Path/Commercial Space movement. The numbers &amp; figures he gives, that purportedly makes the SLS heavy-lift vehicle unsustainable are pure sensationalism!!! WHY would the commercial entrepreneurs have an easy-street time at building a similar rocket? Plus, WHY should we as a nation, place ourselves into such a helpless dependency on these commercial firms for much-later-on building one? To me, it appears to be a case of the commercial side whining over not being handed over ALL of the federal budget dollars&#8212;-right away, and without delay, nor deliberation. Again, I tell you all: THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO LEAD THE WAY, with this. No commercial entity is ready, nor up to the task of renewing American manned spaceflight! The current Administration&#8217;s plan of heavily subsidizing these companies &amp; granting them exclusiveness &amp; priviledge with regard to launching ANY future astronauts for the rest of this decade, strikes me as the biggest folly ever devised!! What&#8212;Flexible Path/Commercial Space wants the immediate end of the governmental space program, just so that their amateurish dreams of launching rockets out of their backyards can commence?!?!</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358167</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2011 00:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358167</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@common sense &lt;i&gt;&quot;BTW, did you just try to out-common-sense me? I am going to have to be more careful I guessâ€¦&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Nah, I couldn&#039;t do that. You da man.
 :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@common sense <i>&#8220;BTW, did you just try to out-common-sense me? I am going to have to be more careful I guessâ€¦&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Nah, I couldn&#8217;t do that. You da man.<br />
 <img src="http://www.spacepolitics.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" class="wp-smiley" /></p>
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		<title>By: E.P. Grondine</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358163</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[E.P. Grondine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi AW - 

&lt;i&gt;If the good people of Virginia want to clean Wallops up, do it! It is not in the nationâ€™s interest.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ll have to strongly disagree with you both on whether the clean up is the State of Virginia&#039;s responsibility or that of the Federal government, as well as on the need for it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi AW &#8211; </p>
<p><i>If the good people of Virginia want to clean Wallops up, do it! It is not in the nationâ€™s interest.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to strongly disagree with you both on whether the clean up is the State of Virginia&#8217;s responsibility or that of the Federal government, as well as on the need for it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: common sense</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2011/11/29/thanksgiving-leftovers/#comment-358162</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[common sense]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2011 22:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=5195#comment-358162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@  Bennett wrote @ November 30th, 2011 at 2:50 pm

All right all right. I was only trying to help... 

BTW, did you just try to out-common-sense me? I am going to have to be more careful I guess...

Any who.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@  Bennett wrote @ November 30th, 2011 at 2:50 pm</p>
<p>All right all right. I was only trying to help&#8230; </p>
<p>BTW, did you just try to out-common-sense me? I am going to have to be more careful I guess&#8230;</p>
<p>Any who.</p>
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