A good point and it’s fine if they do that. But Damphousse was effectively tarring people who publicly criticise SLS / Orion with the label bomb-thrower. That’s crossing the line.

“OK, let me get this straight. If a lobbying organisation attacks something that is the law, then it’s bomb-throwing?”

A very good observation Martijn.

However if the NSS wants to avoid the perception of being “Against” something, I think the best way to do that is only talk about what they are “For”.

Focus their energy on what they see as their top priorities, and if anyone asks about anything else, then just say that it’s not their top priority at this time. That way they at least have a strong voice on something, which right now they don’t – as far as I can tell they support everything, which means nothing.

OK, let me get this straight. If a lobbying organisation attacks something that is the law, then it’s bomb-throwing?

@ It’s easy for Opie and Aunt Bea say they’d love to go in a phone survey from the comfort of their homes after watching an old episode of ‘Star Trek.’>>

In one of the last episodes of Mayberry RFD…Aunt Bea solo’s a Cessna 150.

RGO

“Most of the BEO now with large rocket Apollo 2.0 types don’t consider this. For instance having commercial crew opens up the possibility that you don’t need to travel home in the same craft you launched in.”

Yep. There is a lack of an overall transportation plan for operating beyond LEO, for both human occupied vehicles as well as automated ones.

And since transportation-related hardware currently consumes the front end of all of NASA’s HSF schedules and budget profiles, we are stuck in LEO waiting for one-off solutions that won’t add lasting value (i.e. SLS). Until that mindset is changed – which means decoupling large chunks of money from single suppliers and political districts – we’re not going anywhere fast.

A modified Centaur or DCSS would do the trick, so we don’t need a new NASA upper stage. It would even be a step towards ACES (and ACES depots) and EELV Phase 1. And of Orion only the SM and avionics are needed, not the CM which could be an appropriately modified crew capsule. Just the SM and missions, that’s what NASA needs to focus on.

The focus really should be on payloads and technology not rockets. SEP or prop depot\transfer could be used to move items to l1/l2 such as landers, habs ect.

“ Commercial Crew & Cargo need to meet this requirement too, and I think they do. What happens if we don’t have a redundant ability to get crew to LEO? What happens if we don’t have automated cargo vehicles that can get cargo to & from space? How does that affect our ability to expand in LEO or mount missions beyond LEO?”

Most of the BEO now with large rocket Apollo 2.0 types don’t consider this. For instance having commercial crew opens up the possibility that you don’t need to travel home in the same craft you launched in. You could design a capsule or other return system for return only. In the case of HEFT there were substaintial cost savings by doing so.

It was like $840 million a unit for an Orion that did both launch and landing vs. $597 million a unit for one that just did landing but otherwise had the same functionality vs. $400 million a unit for one that just did landing and had no in space crew support time(about 9 days for the other two verisions). In addition without a LAS an Atlas could lift Orion to LEO vs. needing at least a Delta heavy to get to LEO much less SLS.

Mars DRM 5.0, used two different versions of Orion on each mission! A CCDEV craft could handle the job of one of them, cheaper.

Automated cargo is needed for any realistic expansion into the solar system. You really can’t carry everything with you without huge penalty and the smart move is to use commercial rockets for resupply since they would be cheaper.

The context is not only accurate but alarmingly revealing. He clearly ‘doesn’t know what he doesn’t know yet’ -b ut is discovering it’s harder than he thought. Points to Cernan, as expected.

@Rand Simberg wrote @ April 17th, 2012 at 11:29 am

“Every survey ever done on the subject indicates that about half the public would like to visit space if they could afford it.”

Which is why Branson’s suborbital enterprise, really an entertainment exercise, will be an illuminating business model once it’s operatoonal- and a logical next step for deep-pocketed general public access before attempting the move to orbital flight. Folks who can’t swim say they like to relax and float in bathtub, too. Your citation is essentially meaningless if only by the physiological constraints and rigors involved alone. Not every aged Aunt Bea w/a heart condition who waxes starry-eyed at the night sky with a bank account is in shape to manage the stresses involved of getting launched into and returning from space as the well trained John Glenn was when he flew on shuttle and most Opie’s today aren’t in as good a shape as the younger, 40 year old Glenn was when he few aboard Friendship 7 in ’62. Getting there would risk the lives of many of them beyond the parameters of the flight itself given the obesity levels of the ‘public’ the American public that is.

They not only put their own lives at risk but risk others along for the ride not to mention the liabilities it exposes to the operator. Which makes Branson’s effort all the more interesting to watch and see how it plays out in the marektplace. It’s easy for Opie and Aunt Bea say they’d love to go in a phone survey from the comfort of their homes after watching an old episode of ‘Star Trek.’

And something for visitors of this forums to discuss. We are not required to agree with the US Congress and we’re totally free to criticise its decisions.

And that question addresses another question:

Do the American people still believe that exploring John Kennedy’s “New Ocean” of space is worth the cost?

Who knows. I do know that substantially lower budgets than NASA has had historically would be enough to make significant breakthroughs in the commercial viability of manned spaceflight at no extra cost to exploration. In fact exploration would be likely to benefit enormously from it too.