“The test of if there is a “market” is when you take away the ISS and the government gravy train.”

Since the Commercial Crew participants are already investing their own money before any revenue trips occur, it’s hard to see where the “gravy train” is.

This continues to be a fallacy that in your logic.

As to whether there will be any other need to send people to LEO after the U.S. part of the ISS program has ended, I have no doubt there will be, the only question is when. But the when is pretty flexible, since the rockets all the spacecraft ride on are in continuous production regardless if there is any crew business, so it’s really just the spacecraft programs in house that need to stay active for any business.

It’s a pretty low overhead compared to what NASA will be experiencing with the MPCV and SLS.

So you are saying that airlines should pay back the various government for helping to develop a new industry? Railways? Internet? Etc. Is it the core of your argument?

” but through the market mechanism where ideas are tried through economic merit and not forced down people’s throats by confiscating other people’s money.”

Confiscating other people’s money? Confiscating? Do you know what taxes are for?

So in essence you want taxes to be selectively used according to your own criteria? Or just no tax at all? Then we can have private militia replacing the military, corporation replacing the government(s). Etc. How do you suggest we use, or not, taxes? What should the criteria be for using, or not, taxes? Please enlighten me.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxes

“Money provided by taxation has been used by states and their functional equivalents throughout history to carry out many functions. Some of these include expenditures on war, the enforcement of law and public order, protection of property, economic infrastructure (roads, legal tender, enforcement of contracts, etc.), public works, social engineering, subsidies, and the operation of government itself. Governments also use taxes to fund welfare and public services. A portion of taxes also go to pay off the state’s debt and the interest this debt accumulates. These services can include education systems, health care systems, pensions for the elderly, unemployment benefits, and public transportation. Energy, water and waste management systems are also common public utilities. “

“If there was a credible market for any of these things, it would be done by the private sector using private capital.”

There is a market – NASA needs to resupply the ISS, and needs to transport crew to/from the ISS. They even know the cost of not developing a U.S. supplier, since they are already buying those services from other countries.

The market exists.

Who pays for setting up the initial capability is really the big dispute, and this is where you have to put your business hat on (if you have one).

If you ran a company, and a customer came to you and said:

“I want you pay you to deliver our personnel to a very dangerous location, but you have to do it exactly the way we want, not the way you think you would do it.

Is that OK? Will you commit $1B of your own money on those terms?”

So if you were a CEO, or a Board of Directors responsible for the fiscal health of your company, what would your response be?

This is a test of how well you understand how it is to work with the government, which I have, and apparently you haven’t.

Gregori Economic Rule #1. I seeeee. You are not in aerospace but rather in business/economic type work. Must have an MBA? Or something that demonstrates you actually know those things. Self-made man? You made a fortune selling satellites?

“The government shouldn’t be in the business of picking the winners and creating faux “markets”.”

Profound statement.

“You are defending waste by deflecting the spotlight away from NASA and to the DoD. I think a lot of the DoD deserves to be downsized as it doesn’t protect from any credible threat.”

You don’t understand what you read!! I get it now. So tomorrow ask a friend to teach you and get on with it because you know it is going to help you throughout your life.

“Its amazing how hysterical people get when you question their own pork and sci-fi interests. ”

Hysterical? You’re funny Gregori. As to my own pork, personally, I like it better cooked pink and juicy on the grill. Sci-Fi interests are fairly broad even though nowadays I don’t really have time to read so I watch movies instead, it helps numb my mind in face of so profound comments I have to read everyday. But I liked Dredd and Star Trek and Star Wars and other stuff and I am looking forward to watching Oblivion.

You’re welcome.

You are defending waste by deflecting the spotlight away from NASA and to the DoD. I think a lot of the DoD deserves to be downsized as it doesn’t protect from any credible threat.

Its amazing how hysterical people get when you question their own pork and sci-fi interests.

It looks to me like both of you and Smith do not understand the political reality. First, there is not enough public support for the SLS if it is to be used solely for manned flight to the Moon or Mars. Second, the public actually expects NASA to handle the impact hazard.

Perhaps the Great Eastern may provide a historical analogy for the SLS. It was put to a highly beneficial use its original creators did not foresee.

Something you don’t understand in “create a new market”? I am not talking about satellites. I did not know that having satellites would exclude any other markets. The Moon has been around for sometime you know? And it’s a satellite. Thankfully someone saw the benefit of having more satellites of a different kind. And it was not achieved overnight.

“Humans are pretty much useless in space.”

Says who?

“They probably should splash the station in 2015.”

I see. You are making policy now? The stations is around and has been planned to stay around until at least 2020. Make an effort, will you? http://www.nasa.gov/connect/chat/bolden_chat.html
“CharlieB: NASA will continue to have manned spaceflights with our next launch being to the International Space Station early this fall. Our intention is to continue the operation of the ISS with American and partner crew members through at least 2020.”

“With the debt the government is wracking up, human spaceflight seems like an absurd waste.”

Blablablablablabla. The DoD costs us around $1T and I do not see any sign of canceling it even though a lot of the most expensive weapons systems do not protect us all that much.

“Jesus. The sucking of the government teat never ends. Enough with these faux markets that are just monopsonies.”

Did you come up with this on your own, or copied it from elsewhere? And Jesus has nothing to do with it. Leave him be.

Monopsonies… And by the way, no the sucking will never end. This is why we have a government and we pay taxes. A difficult concept I know.

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“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” — Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.