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	<title>Comments on: Another plea to get the politics out of space</title>
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	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439910</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Nov 2013 03:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Species survival probably takes a lot more than a &quot;base&quot;. A species will die out pretty fast if the genetic diversity is low, or may actually eventually turn into something quite different. So for a few generations with a small population, you might preserve some semblance of a species. But it gets harder after that, I believe.

I would very much like to see some analysis of what population it takes to REALLY preserve a species. There must be a lot of work on that by conservation biologists. I suspect that eight isn&#039;t enough. I seem to remember that, for many species, numbers of a thousand or so translate into only 90% survival odds. There is a &quot;50/500&quot; rule that says that at least 50 souls are needed to avoid serious short-term inbreeding. 500 souls are needed for longer term survival. So it may be very naive to presume that putting even a small town on Mars is any kind of insurance for our species. Let&#039;s be careful here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Species survival probably takes a lot more than a &#8220;base&#8221;. A species will die out pretty fast if the genetic diversity is low, or may actually eventually turn into something quite different. So for a few generations with a small population, you might preserve some semblance of a species. But it gets harder after that, I believe.</p>
<p>I would very much like to see some analysis of what population it takes to REALLY preserve a species. There must be a lot of work on that by conservation biologists. I suspect that eight isn&#8217;t enough. I seem to remember that, for many species, numbers of a thousand or so translate into only 90% survival odds. There is a &#8220;50/500&#8243; rule that says that at least 50 souls are needed to avoid serious short-term inbreeding. 500 souls are needed for longer term survival. So it may be very naive to presume that putting even a small town on Mars is any kind of insurance for our species. Let&#8217;s be careful here.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Shipley</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439903</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil Shipley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Nov 2013 02:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439903</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Species survival.  Not an Apollo type mission but a base.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Species survival.  Not an Apollo type mission but a base.</p>
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		<title>By: MattW</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MattW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Nov 2013 19:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s an easy target because it&#039;s a stand-alone government agency with discretionary spending AND a track record of spending billions of dollars on projects that go nowhere. I&#039;m a huge supporter of manned space exploration and even I&#039;m not convinced that NASA HSF is worth the cost.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an easy target because it&#8217;s a stand-alone government agency with discretionary spending AND a track record of spending billions of dollars on projects that go nowhere. I&#8217;m a huge supporter of manned space exploration and even I&#8217;m not convinced that NASA HSF is worth the cost.</p>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Nov 2013 15:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I personally would rather have seen $2.6billion spent not on another Mars robotic mission but on advancing the technology that would assist in a human Mars mission.&quot;

I personally would rather have seen $700M/year expended on space technology which would have done just that, as proposed by the President, but which Congress pared mercilessly. Remember too that a large piece of the $2.6M budget for MSL was because it didn&#039;t make it&#039;s launch window, and had to be postponed two years. Various reasons for that, but a big one was false economies imposed on the mission by Congress, and the resultant marching armies. The peak $225M/yr expended on MSL won&#039;t get your Mars technology that far. 

I personally would also like to see some solid rationale for why we need to be flinging humans to Mars in the first place. Mars can do very well without human footprints, and we could do fine without photos of astronauts waving at the camera with red dust on their helmets.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I personally would rather have seen $2.6billion spent not on another Mars robotic mission but on advancing the technology that would assist in a human Mars mission.&#8221;</p>
<p>I personally would rather have seen $700M/year expended on space technology which would have done just that, as proposed by the President, but which Congress pared mercilessly. Remember too that a large piece of the $2.6M budget for MSL was because it didn&#8217;t make it&#8217;s launch window, and had to be postponed two years. Various reasons for that, but a big one was false economies imposed on the mission by Congress, and the resultant marching armies. The peak $225M/yr expended on MSL won&#8217;t get your Mars technology that far. </p>
<p>I personally would also like to see some solid rationale for why we need to be flinging humans to Mars in the first place. Mars can do very well without human footprints, and we could do fine without photos of astronauts waving at the camera with red dust on their helmets.</p>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439631</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Nov 2013 15:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, let&#039;s not twist words. What you believe is that MSL did not supply return on investment. Most everyone else thinks it did deliver a good ROI. I do. Apollo broke the bank as well, but it delivered a well appreciated ROI. I certainly think it did. I don&#039;t think anyone regrets that Apollo broke the bank. (And boy did it break the bank!) You can break the bank and end up with a pretty fantastic ROI. But one would rather not break the bank to do that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, let&#8217;s not twist words. What you believe is that MSL did not supply return on investment. Most everyone else thinks it did deliver a good ROI. I do. Apollo broke the bank as well, but it delivered a well appreciated ROI. I certainly think it did. I don&#8217;t think anyone regrets that Apollo broke the bank. (And boy did it break the bank!) You can break the bank and end up with a pretty fantastic ROI. But one would rather not break the bank to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Shipley</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439586</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil Shipley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Nov 2013 09:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439586</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I personally would rather have seen $2.6billion spent not on another Mars robotic mission but on advancing the technology that would assist in a human Mars mission.  We probably know enough about Mars and en-route space environment to start serious design, test and build.  Not to mention in-space craft and I&#039;m not referring to that waste of money that MPCV is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally would rather have seen $2.6billion spent not on another Mars robotic mission but on advancing the technology that would assist in a human Mars mission.  We probably know enough about Mars and en-route space environment to start serious design, test and build.  Not to mention in-space craft and I&#8217;m not referring to that waste of money that MPCV is.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Shipley</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439582</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil Shipley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Nov 2013 08:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[2016/17!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2016/17!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Coastal Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Coastal Ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Nov 2013 23:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ameriman blurted:

&quot;&lt;i&gt;When the shameful pork ISS was near cancellation, Democrat Bill Clinton rescued itâ€¦ and now we have a useless $200 billion Democrat white elephant in orbit which even Nasa wants to dump in the Pacific.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

No one from NASA has stated that, so you must be hearing that from &quot;lifers&quot; that work on the SLS program.

&quot;&lt;i&gt;GWB created and funded COTS&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

To be clear, Bush43 funded the Commercial Cargo, but not Commercial Crew - that was Obama.

And while we&#039;re at it, you left Bush43&#039;s Constellation program off your rant list.  That was a massive waste of time and money, and it was not going to produce anything truly useful.  Regardless, I&#039;m sure you&#039;ll blame the Democrat Congress for that, right?

&quot;&lt;i&gt;Now Democrat Obama and a Dem Congress created the shameless, unneeded, unaffordable, unsustainable earmarked pork SLS/Orion.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

My how some people have selective memories.  If you go back and actually look, the main three architects of the SLS are Nelson (D-FL), Shelby (R-AL) and Hutchison (R-TX).  How come you glossed over the fact that Republicans were the majority on that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ameriman blurted:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>When the shameful pork ISS was near cancellation, Democrat Bill Clinton rescued itâ€¦ and now we have a useless $200 billion Democrat white elephant in orbit which even Nasa wants to dump in the Pacific.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>No one from NASA has stated that, so you must be hearing that from &#8220;lifers&#8221; that work on the SLS program.</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>GWB created and funded COTS</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>To be clear, Bush43 funded the Commercial Cargo, but not Commercial Crew &#8211; that was Obama.</p>
<p>And while we&#8217;re at it, you left Bush43&#8217;s Constellation program off your rant list.  That was a massive waste of time and money, and it was not going to produce anything truly useful.  Regardless, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll blame the Democrat Congress for that, right?</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Now Democrat Obama and a Dem Congress created the shameless, unneeded, unaffordable, unsustainable earmarked pork SLS/Orion.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>My how some people have selective memories.  If you go back and actually look, the main three architects of the SLS are Nelson (D-FL), Shelby (R-AL) and Hutchison (R-TX).  How come you glossed over the fact that Republicans were the majority on that?</p>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439532</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Nov 2013 14:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with this. The government does things that private businesses won&#039;t. Those things can be in the long-term interest of the nation, which private businesses don&#039;t care squat about. There is value in a government-funded space agency, but you&#039;re not going to see that value on your books this year or next. Our government is, however, not optimal for achieving far-reaching projects, taking decades to implement. In one respect, with regard to space, that was the wisdom in the flexible path approach. That incremental approach has our government biting off small pieces of the problem at any one time. To some extent, that&#039;s what we&#039;re doing right now with ISS. Should political stupidity demand it, we can stop biting for a while. Unless faced with a desperate need to assert national superiority with massive federal funding, the likes of the Apollo program simply won&#039;t happen again in our government.

So the issue shouldn&#039;t be getting politics out of space, but rather how to organize our space efforts to make them more resilient to politics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with this. The government does things that private businesses won&#8217;t. Those things can be in the long-term interest of the nation, which private businesses don&#8217;t care squat about. There is value in a government-funded space agency, but you&#8217;re not going to see that value on your books this year or next. Our government is, however, not optimal for achieving far-reaching projects, taking decades to implement. In one respect, with regard to space, that was the wisdom in the flexible path approach. That incremental approach has our government biting off small pieces of the problem at any one time. To some extent, that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re doing right now with ISS. Should political stupidity demand it, we can stop biting for a while. Unless faced with a desperate need to assert national superiority with massive federal funding, the likes of the Apollo program simply won&#8217;t happen again in our government.</p>
<p>So the issue shouldn&#8217;t be getting politics out of space, but rather how to organize our space efforts to make them more resilient to politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Coastal Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2013/11/01/another-plea-to-get-the-politics-out-of-space/#comment-439472</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Coastal Ron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Nov 2013 03:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6668#comment-439472</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[common sense said:

&quot;&lt;i&gt;Unfortunately, I suspect that if some were to really look in detail at the Space Act it would spell a lot of trouble for NASAâ€¦&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Huh?  If anything, NASA would be in a lot better shape if everyone followed &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The National Aeronautics and Space Act&lt;/a&gt; (Pub. L. No. 111â€“314
124 Stat. 3328 - Dec. 18, 2010).  Maybe it&#039;s not perfect, and maybe it does need to be updated, but it&#039;s not too bad.

Certainly Congress did not take it into consideration when they created the SLS program, nor do they seem to be cognizant of Sec. 20102. (c):

&quot;&lt;i&gt;Commercial Use of Space.--Congress declares that the general welfare of the United States requires that the Administration seek and encourage, to the maximum extent possible, the fullest commercial use of space.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

And depending on how much stock you put into such things, that section on the commercial use of space is before the section that gets into the science and HSF stuff.

I don&#039;t think anyone in Congress feels that they are bound by this act, but they also don&#039;t feel any need to replace it with something else.  That&#039;s part of the waste that Congress creates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>common sense said:</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Unfortunately, I suspect that if some were to really look in detail at the Space Act it would spell a lot of trouble for NASAâ€¦</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Huh?  If anything, NASA would be in a lot better shape if everyone followed <a href="" title="" rel="nofollow">The National Aeronautics and Space Act</a> (Pub. L. No. 111â€“314<br />
124 Stat. 3328 &#8211; Dec. 18, 2010).  Maybe it&#8217;s not perfect, and maybe it does need to be updated, but it&#8217;s not too bad.</p>
<p>Certainly Congress did not take it into consideration when they created the SLS program, nor do they seem to be cognizant of Sec. 20102. (c):</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Commercial Use of Space.&#8211;Congress declares that the general welfare of the United States requires that the Administration seek and encourage, to the maximum extent possible, the fullest commercial use of space.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>And depending on how much stock you put into such things, that section on the commercial use of space is before the section that gets into the science and HSF stuff.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone in Congress feels that they are bound by this act, but they also don&#8217;t feel any need to replace it with something else.  That&#8217;s part of the waste that Congress creates.</p>
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