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	<title>Comments on: Europa on five (hundred thousand) dollars a day</title>
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	<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day</link>
	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Is there no instruments that are just plugged in as an off the self design?&quot;

You may have better shelves than I do. (Though &quot;off the self&quot; might be more appropriate.)

As to science instruments, those are instruments that do new things. Off-the-shelf science instruments get you off-the-shelf science. Off-the-shelf science is indeed probably cheaper than cutting edge science.

As to the spacecraft, new technologies give higher capabilities and reliability than old technologies do. Certainly &quot;every single part&quot; isn&#039;t new, though these parts have to be assembled in new ways that guarantee performance at Europa. Power, thermal, comm, radiation -- it&#039;s all different at Europa than at Mars or Mercury. A design architecture that works for on-orbit imaging of Mars simply won&#039;t work for Europa. 

The way I look at it is that each new mission is an opportunity to be creative with new technology. If the goal is shelf-cleaning, then that creativity isn&#039;t exercised.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is there no instruments that are just plugged in as an off the self design?&#8221;</p>
<p>You may have better shelves than I do. (Though &#8220;off the self&#8221; might be more appropriate.)</p>
<p>As to science instruments, those are instruments that do new things. Off-the-shelf science instruments get you off-the-shelf science. Off-the-shelf science is indeed probably cheaper than cutting edge science.</p>
<p>As to the spacecraft, new technologies give higher capabilities and reliability than old technologies do. Certainly &#8220;every single part&#8221; isn&#8217;t new, though these parts have to be assembled in new ways that guarantee performance at Europa. Power, thermal, comm, radiation &#8212; it&#8217;s all different at Europa than at Mars or Mercury. A design architecture that works for on-orbit imaging of Mars simply won&#8217;t work for Europa. </p>
<p>The way I look at it is that each new mission is an opportunity to be creative with new technology. If the goal is shelf-cleaning, then that creativity isn&#8217;t exercised.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladislaw</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vladislaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2014 18:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When a new mission like this is proposed, is every single part, instrument, bus, fuel tanks, wiring et cetera, et cetera all brand new and entirely REengineered from scratch?

Is there no instruments that are just plugged in as an off the self design?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When a new mission like this is proposed, is every single part, instrument, bus, fuel tanks, wiring et cetera, et cetera all brand new and entirely REengineered from scratch?</p>
<p>Is there no instruments that are just plugged in as an off the self design?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Neil Shipley</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476097</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil Shipley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2014 07:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Still floundering around for a mission for SLS?  There are existing vehicles that can do the job.  No need to fly a vapourware monster rocket.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still floundering around for a mission for SLS?  There are existing vehicles that can do the job.  No need to fly a vapourware monster rocket.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Shipley</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476077</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Neil Shipley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476077</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No a F9 probably couldn&#039;t but an FH could or a Raptor powered F9 which will probably (assuming SpaceX successful) be available by the time this mission actually gets to paying for a launch.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No a F9 probably couldn&#8217;t but an FH could or a Raptor powered F9 which will probably (assuming SpaceX successful) be available by the time this mission actually gets to paying for a launch.</p>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476060</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2014 16:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476060</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;It is more the case that NASA does a very poor job updating their website.&quot;

No shortage of those ...

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/discovery.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is more the case that NASA does a very poor job updating their website.&#8221;</p>
<p>No shortage of those &#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/discovery.html" rel="nofollow">http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/discovery.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: RockyMtnSpace</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476045</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RockyMtnSpace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2014 12:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476045</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Now, itâ€™s not as if NASAâ€™s right hand always knows what the left hand is doing, but the words in the solicitation are what count.&quot;

It is more the case that NASA does a very poor job updating their website.  That text is probably early 2000&#039;s vintage.  The AO solicitations are what count.  Go read those.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Now, itâ€™s not as if NASAâ€™s right hand always knows what the left hand is doing, but the words in the solicitation are what count.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is more the case that NASA does a very poor job updating their website.  That text is probably early 2000&#8217;s vintage.  The AO solicitations are what count.  Go read those.</p>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476010</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2014 22:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Oops.&quot;

You&#039;re right, but ...

&quot;The cost for the entire mission (design, development, launch vehicle, instruments, spacecraft, launch, mission operations, data analysis, education and public outreach) must be less than $425 million.&quot;

http://discovery.nasa.gov/p_mission.cfml

Now, it&#039;s not as if NASA&#039;s right hand always knows what the left hand is doing, but the words in the solicitation are what count.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Oops.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, but &#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;The cost for the entire mission (design, development, launch vehicle, instruments, spacecraft, launch, mission operations, data analysis, education and public outreach) must be less than $425 million.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://discovery.nasa.gov/p_mission.cfml" rel="nofollow">http://discovery.nasa.gov/p_mission.cfml</a></p>
<p>Now, it&#8217;s not as if NASA&#8217;s right hand always knows what the left hand is doing, but the words in the solicitation are what count.</p>
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		<title>By: RockyMtnSpace</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476008</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RockyMtnSpace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2014 21:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops.  Here: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=45337]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops.  Here: <a href="http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=45337" rel="nofollow">http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=45337</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: RockyMtnSpace</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-476007</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RockyMtnSpace]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2014 21:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-476007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The S/C cost doesnâ€™t scale with LV expense. It scales with the LV capacity.&quot;

No, it doesn&#039;t.  The S/C cost has nothing to do with the LV.  The LV typically isn&#039;t selected until the S/C is well into Phase C/D.  During the proposal phase and Phase A/B (and we are talking NASA SMD missions here), the S/C has to be compatible with a class of LV&#039;s.  For ELV, this included Atlas, Delta, and Falcon.

&quot;By the way, the cost cap for at least a Discovery mission is $425M, and that *includes* the launch vehicle.&quot;

No, it doesn&#039;t.  For Discovery and NF, the cost cap explicitly excludes the LV and has for several cycles now.  You need to do a little better research next time.  Furthermore, the next Discovery mission will be capped at $450M based on the announcement of the release of the Draft AO that came out a couple of weeks ago.  Here is the relevant text:

&quot;Investigations are capped at a Phase A-D cost of $450M (FY 2015), excluding standard launch services. The now-standard 25% minimum reserve on Phases A-D will be required within the cost cap.&quot;

Link is here: ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The S/C cost doesnâ€™t scale with LV expense. It scales with the LV capacity.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, it doesn&#8217;t.  The S/C cost has nothing to do with the LV.  The LV typically isn&#8217;t selected until the S/C is well into Phase C/D.  During the proposal phase and Phase A/B (and we are talking NASA SMD missions here), the S/C has to be compatible with a class of LV&#8217;s.  For ELV, this included Atlas, Delta, and Falcon.</p>
<p>&#8220;By the way, the cost cap for at least a Discovery mission is $425M, and that *includes* the launch vehicle.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, it doesn&#8217;t.  For Discovery and NF, the cost cap explicitly excludes the LV and has for several cycles now.  You need to do a little better research next time.  Furthermore, the next Discovery mission will be capped at $450M based on the announcement of the release of the Draft AO that came out a couple of weeks ago.  Here is the relevant text:</p>
<p>&#8220;Investigations are capped at a Phase A-D cost of $450M (FY 2015), excluding standard launch services. The now-standard 25% minimum reserve on Phases A-D will be required within the cost cap.&#8221;</p>
<p>Link is here: </p>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/03/07/europa-on-five-hundred-thousand-dollars-a-day/#comment-475990</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2014 16:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=6926#comment-475990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I will add that New Frontiers cost cap is currently $1.05B including launch costs. That was understood to mean about $750M for costs that were managed by the PI team. The Planetary Decadal recommended that the cost cap for these missions be reset to a flat $1B excluding launch costs. That recommendation was largely based on the independent cost reviews of the four New Frontiers concepts presented to them. The handwriting on the wall was that $1.05B wouldn&#039;t buy anything that we really wanted to do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will add that New Frontiers cost cap is currently $1.05B including launch costs. That was understood to mean about $750M for costs that were managed by the PI team. The Planetary Decadal recommended that the cost cap for these missions be reset to a flat $1B excluding launch costs. That recommendation was largely based on the independent cost reviews of the four New Frontiers concepts presented to them. The handwriting on the wall was that $1.05B wouldn&#8217;t buy anything that we really wanted to do.</p>
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