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	<title>Comments on: NASA CFO&#8217;s Energy Department nomination withdrawn</title>
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	<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn</link>
	<description>Because sometimes the most important orbit is the Beltway...</description>
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		<title>By: Dick Eagleson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-518742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2014 05:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-518742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They did no damage to the space program.  It&#039;s still bleedingout despite their best efforts.  I&#039;d compare them to a couple of E.R. nurses working for an attending physician with ADD and constantly bedeviled by Congressional gangbangers who kept sneaking into the O.R. to shoot or stab the patient again and again.  I guess both got tired of being up to their knees in metaphorical blood and gore all the time.  Can&#039;t say I blame either one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They did no damage to the space program.  It&#8217;s still bleedingout despite their best efforts.  I&#8217;d compare them to a couple of E.R. nurses working for an attending physician with ADD and constantly bedeviled by Congressional gangbangers who kept sneaking into the O.R. to shoot or stab the patient again and again.  I guess both got tired of being up to their knees in metaphorical blood and gore all the time.  Can&#8217;t say I blame either one.</p>
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		<title>By: Dick Eagleson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-518730</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2014 05:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-518730</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hadn&#039;t read that, but it&#039;s completely consistent with what he&#039;s done at Tesla.  That&#039;s why I figured it was what he did at SpaceX too.  The listed prices for F9 and FH just seem to neatly back up this interpretation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t read that, but it&#8217;s completely consistent with what he&#8217;s done at Tesla.  That&#8217;s why I figured it was what he did at SpaceX too.  The listed prices for F9 and FH just seem to neatly back up this interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: amightywind</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-517134</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[amightywind]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 14:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-517134</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting tidbit, and comes as no great surprise. Those two did a lot of damage to the space program. Good to see both of Musk&#039;s moles chased from government.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting tidbit, and comes as no great surprise. Those two did a lot of damage to the space program. Good to see both of Musk&#8217;s moles chased from government.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladislaw</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-515735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vladislaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2014 00:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-515735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had read that Musk went to the the auto engine manufacturing industry to learn about production methods that could be brought over to rocket engine production.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had read that Musk went to the the auto engine manufacturing industry to learn about production methods that could be brought over to rocket engine production.</p>
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		<title>By: Egad</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-515070</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Egad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 17:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-515070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;sheâ€™ll find some other way to honorably extract herself from the CFO position&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, that&#039;s my reading also. It&#039;s sure what I&#039;d do in her situation.

Meanwhile, she&#039;s still there in the CFO seat, which is probably a very uncomfortable place to be at the present time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>sheâ€™ll find some other way to honorably extract herself from the CFO position</i></p>
<p>Yes, that&#8217;s my reading also. It&#8217;s sure what I&#8217;d do in her situation.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, she&#8217;s still there in the CFO seat, which is probably a very uncomfortable place to be at the present time.</p>
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		<title>By: Hiram</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-514943</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hiram]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 16:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-514943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Garver and Robinson were well understood to be philosophically close on matters of agency funding priorities and general policy. I have to assume that Robinson&#039;s nomination for DOE came as a result of her expression, to the Administration, that she was looking for an escape hatch. Without Garver fronting for her, Robinson probably felt much less influential as CFO. So I also have to assume that, if this nomination isn&#039;t approved, she&#039;ll find some other way to honorably extract herself from the CFO position.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Garver and Robinson were well understood to be philosophically close on matters of agency funding priorities and general policy. I have to assume that Robinson&#8217;s nomination for DOE came as a result of her expression, to the Administration, that she was looking for an escape hatch. Without Garver fronting for her, Robinson probably felt much less influential as CFO. So I also have to assume that, if this nomination isn&#8217;t approved, she&#8217;ll find some other way to honorably extract herself from the CFO position.</p>
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		<title>By: Egad</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-514834</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Egad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 15:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-514834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;more traditional NASA managers&lt;/i&gt;

From his bio, I&#039;d guess that Mr. Lightfoot is in that category, but does anybody here know if that&#039;s actually true?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>more traditional NASA managers</i></p>
<p>From his bio, I&#8217;d guess that Mr. Lightfoot is in that category, but does anybody here know if that&#8217;s actually true?</p>
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		<title>By: Egad</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-514594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Egad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2014 13:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-514594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Back to Ms. Robinson: 

I was researching her CFO tenure a little and came across the following snippet from last August.  Whether it has any current relevance, I could not say.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
http://aviationweek.com/space/garver-quits-nasa-alpa

Garver Quits NASA For ALPA
Aug 6, 2013 Frank Morring, Jr.

[snip]

Garverâ€™s departure will come on the heels of Elizabeth Robinson, the agencyâ€™s chief financial officer, who has been named under secretary of energy. Robinson and Garver were staunch allies in the often-heated management policy debates that pitted them against more traditional NASA managers, including Administrator Charles Bolden.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back to Ms. Robinson: </p>
<p>I was researching her CFO tenure a little and came across the following snippet from last August.  Whether it has any current relevance, I could not say.</p>
<blockquote><p>
<a href="http://aviationweek.com/space/garver-quits-nasa-alpa" rel="nofollow">http://aviationweek.com/space/garver-quits-nasa-alpa</a></p>
<p>Garver Quits NASA For ALPA<br />
Aug 6, 2013 Frank Morring, Jr.</p>
<p>[snip]</p>
<p>Garverâ€™s departure will come on the heels of Elizabeth Robinson, the agencyâ€™s chief financial officer, who has been named under secretary of energy. Robinson and Garver were staunch allies in the often-heated management policy debates that pitted them against more traditional NASA managers, including Administrator Charles Bolden.
</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Dick Eagleson</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-512983</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Eagleson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 21:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-512983</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey, I&#039;m with you 100%.  Especially on that Orion heat shield thing.  An alleged &quot;deep space&quot; craft that&#039;ll burn to a cinder if it tries re-entering any faster than from a lunar mission suggests that NASA has been defining &quot;deep&quot; pretty radically down.  All the touch labor involved in fabricating the thing is just icing on the cake.

As to all the &lt;i&gt;other&lt;/i&gt; touch labor that doubtless goes into the stratospheric costs of SLS components, I&#039;m sure you&#039;re also right.  The aerospace industry has not, in general, been a big user of industrial robotics.  They&#039;re happy enough to carve their parts with state-of-the-art CNC machine tools, but after that, the process of aircraft construction would look familiar to anyone on the Rouge Plant line in 1908.  Spacecraft production &quot;lines&quot; are even worse.

In contrast, I strongly suspect that one of Elon&#039;s secret weapons in keeping costs below what anyone in the legacy aerospace world thinks possible is aggressive automation.  I don&#039;t know how SpaceX assembles Merlin 1-D&#039;s, for example, but I know Elon employs industrial engineers at Tesla who have developed one of the most highly automated robotic car assembly lines in the world.  I&#039;d be amazed if these same guys haven&#039;t been splitting their time between Tesla and SpaceX.  A Merlin 1-D is a lot smaller, lighter and more conveniently shaped for automated assembly than a Tesla Model S, for example.

Another clue.  Much of Tesla is Bay Area located, but there&#039;s a biggish building with the Tesla logo on it right next to the even bigger-ish SpaceX headquarters and factory building in Hawthorne.  I don&#039;t know what goes on in that Hawthorne Tesla building, but maybe it&#039;s where the industrial engineers prototype their automation systems.  The ones for Tesla go north and the ones for SpaceX go next door.  That would certainly explain a lot.

As supporting evidence for this surmise, I am particularly struck by the quite modest difference between the price of a commercial Falcon 9 satellite launch quoted on SpacceX&#039;s web site ($61.2 milllion) and the price quoted for a Falcon Heavy launch ($85 million).  There is cross-feed plumbing to account for, to be sure, but an FH is, to a good first-order approximation, just three F9 first stages strapped together.  The FH price suggests the incremental price of an F9-type core is less than $12 million.  The engines are supposed to account for about 75% of that, so that would be $9 million.  As there are nine engines per core, that makes the fully-burdened price of a Merlin 1-D, as it reaches the customer, right around a million bucks.  If this is even &lt;i&gt;close&lt;/i&gt; to being true it has to be because SpaceX has automated the pluperfect &lt;i&gt;hell&lt;/i&gt; out of Merlin 1-D assembly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, I&#8217;m with you 100%.  Especially on that Orion heat shield thing.  An alleged &#8220;deep space&#8221; craft that&#8217;ll burn to a cinder if it tries re-entering any faster than from a lunar mission suggests that NASA has been defining &#8220;deep&#8221; pretty radically down.  All the touch labor involved in fabricating the thing is just icing on the cake.</p>
<p>As to all the <i>other</i> touch labor that doubtless goes into the stratospheric costs of SLS components, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re also right.  The aerospace industry has not, in general, been a big user of industrial robotics.  They&#8217;re happy enough to carve their parts with state-of-the-art CNC machine tools, but after that, the process of aircraft construction would look familiar to anyone on the Rouge Plant line in 1908.  Spacecraft production &#8220;lines&#8221; are even worse.</p>
<p>In contrast, I strongly suspect that one of Elon&#8217;s secret weapons in keeping costs below what anyone in the legacy aerospace world thinks possible is aggressive automation.  I don&#8217;t know how SpaceX assembles Merlin 1-D&#8217;s, for example, but I know Elon employs industrial engineers at Tesla who have developed one of the most highly automated robotic car assembly lines in the world.  I&#8217;d be amazed if these same guys haven&#8217;t been splitting their time between Tesla and SpaceX.  A Merlin 1-D is a lot smaller, lighter and more conveniently shaped for automated assembly than a Tesla Model S, for example.</p>
<p>Another clue.  Much of Tesla is Bay Area located, but there&#8217;s a biggish building with the Tesla logo on it right next to the even bigger-ish SpaceX headquarters and factory building in Hawthorne.  I don&#8217;t know what goes on in that Hawthorne Tesla building, but maybe it&#8217;s where the industrial engineers prototype their automation systems.  The ones for Tesla go north and the ones for SpaceX go next door.  That would certainly explain a lot.</p>
<p>As supporting evidence for this surmise, I am particularly struck by the quite modest difference between the price of a commercial Falcon 9 satellite launch quoted on SpacceX&#8217;s web site ($61.2 milllion) and the price quoted for a Falcon Heavy launch ($85 million).  There is cross-feed plumbing to account for, to be sure, but an FH is, to a good first-order approximation, just three F9 first stages strapped together.  The FH price suggests the incremental price of an F9-type core is less than $12 million.  The engines are supposed to account for about 75% of that, so that would be $9 million.  As there are nine engines per core, that makes the fully-burdened price of a Merlin 1-D, as it reaches the customer, right around a million bucks.  If this is even <i>close</i> to being true it has to be because SpaceX has automated the pluperfect <i>hell</i> out of Merlin 1-D assembly.</p>
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		<title>By: Malmesbury</title>
		<link>http://www.spacepolitics.com/2014/07/10/nasa-cfos-energy-department-nomination-withdrawn/#comment-512515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Malmesbury]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2014 16:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spacepolitics.com/?p=7230#comment-512515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;As entertaining and, no doubt, accurate as Malmesburyâ€™s comment is, I donâ€™t think it advances the search for an answer. Orion is a separate hyper-expensive, wasteful and opaque NASA program from SLS.&quot;

I was using the heat shield as an illustration of how this happens using a related program.

I am quite certain that behind the curtain SLS is the same....

- Different structures, hand made, for each vehicle. 
- Elaborate hand work.
- Elaborate analysis and management of individual parts.
- Elaborate efforts to automate said hand work in x number of ways.
- Lots of tests, experiments and side projects to try things out that will never be used.

It is about finding work for all the idle hands.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As entertaining and, no doubt, accurate as Malmesburyâ€™s comment is, I donâ€™t think it advances the search for an answer. Orion is a separate hyper-expensive, wasteful and opaque NASA program from SLS.&#8221;</p>
<p>I was using the heat shield as an illustration of how this happens using a related program.</p>
<p>I am quite certain that behind the curtain SLS is the same&#8230;.</p>
<p>&#8211; Different structures, hand made, for each vehicle.<br />
&#8211; Elaborate hand work.<br />
&#8211; Elaborate analysis and management of individual parts.<br />
&#8211; Elaborate efforts to automate said hand work in x number of ways.<br />
&#8211; Lots of tests, experiments and side projects to try things out that will never be used.</p>
<p>It is about finding work for all the idle hands.</p>
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